This gender/sex debacle is the single most baffling and nutty “woke” issue. How did we get from Title 9 - the 1972 federal law establishing women’s sports in schools to ensure women equal rights to play women’s sports (as men had long enjoyed men’s sports) - to this Krazy business that dissolves that law and allows men to compete w women? The whole point of Title 9 was to establish and protect women’s sports. And why does everyone refer to men who do this as women? Why is Khalif referred to as a “she”? He is free to pursue his sexuality as he wishes, but he should not be free to compete in women’s sports. Because he is not, in fact, a women. And he should not be able to dictate language and expression by the vast majority of the population that has common sense. Does it all come down to not “offending” him by referring to him as a man and preventing him from entering women’s sports? Really? And his supposed feeling of offense outweighs the interest of real women to compete against each other? Any sensible fellow in that situation wouldn’t actually be offended anyway. He knows perfectly well he is a man. The whole thing is a blizzard of foolishness.
Are we sure she tested positive for XY? I'm reading different reporting on this. "Unspecified gender test" is what I see IBA reporting.
Do we know her masculinization occurred via a Y chromosome vs adrenal? could she be XX with adrenal hyperplasia?
Even for rare patients with XY, one can be indistinguishable from female phenotype with Complete Androgen Insensitivity (for the sticklers, of course she wouldn't have a uterus or ovaries, I'm strictly referring to external phenotype that would impact sex-specific spaces and sports, not her medical care). There would be no reason to put an XY female with CAIS into the male division. That person would be at risk in that scenario.
This is not a clear cut transgender female who went through male puberty, competed as an adult in their sport and then transitioned, which obviously is abhorrent.
I don't know that this situation should be forced through the culture war filter until we know more.
what's clear though, boxing oversight is a shit show.
Serious question here: if the point is to break down gender binaries, then why isn't anyone talking about adding categories so that athletes who don't fit neatly into male or female categories can still compete? Logistically it would take some effort, but it has the potential to be a compromise that would satisfy concerns for XX/cisgender female athletes *and* continue to allow gender non-binary athletes to participate in sports at elite levels. We already have examples of it in less competitive sports where there are male, female, and co-ed teams.
Technically there are no male teams, just women’s teams and coed teams. The problem with your compromise approach is that an insufficient number of athletes actually choose their option when offered.
A similar attempt was made in international cycling, if I'm not mistaken. In addition to the men's and women's categories, they introduced a third, open category, but the trouble is, no one applied to participate in it.
The reason is obvious. It's easy and pleasant to beat women.
Fair point, despite the opening sentence, which is pretty patronizing and doesn't add any substance. Like I said, it would take some effort, but since it didn't work once, does it mean it can't be pursued again and/or in other sports? If there are rules around gender assignment at birth, hormone levels, gender at time of puberty, etc. it could help to solve the problem that international cycling had (also, from what I could find, they added the "open category about a year ago so has there been enough time for proof of concept??). I just don't buy that trans female athletes are nefarious misogynists. There has to be a reasonable solution to this issue.
The biggest obstacle comes with the idea of classifying transgender athletes as anything but inarguably the sex for which they claim to identify.
Having an “open” or “trans” or miscellaneous category for such will only be seen as a bigoted effort against their womanhood. Is it worth trying again? From an ethical standpoint, sure, but sports (even the Olympics, in this day and age) is business and creating a whole new category is expensive and likely throwing good money after bad.
Reasonable solutions are only ever reached among reasonable people; this is a matter of dealing with children throwing tantrums.
I don't care about the problems of trans people. Strictly speaking, despite all the noise in the press and the cries of academics, there are so few of them that the Paralympic Games could solve all their problems.
I am sure that at least 90% of men who imagine themselves to be women are mentally abnormal, no matter what "modern doctors" say. And yes, yes, many of them are pathological misogynists.
In the case with boxers, everything I said has nothing to do with it. They have a common problem of developmental deviation, tests for it used to be mandatory for women, but "science" does not stand still.
She didn't menstruate - that was one of the accusers' arguments. Since the battle for transgender rights was not in vogue during those dark times, it's unlikely that the accusers made this up.
I do care about the problems of trans people. They should be able to live with peace and freedom just like anyone else. What I struggle with are the details because I believe XX/cisgender female athletes deserve fair competition, particularly in the highest levels of any given sport (post puberty age groups). I also believe that trans people - and what we're really talking about here is trans women - should be able to have an outlet for athletic competition at elite levels...just not against XX/cisgender women.
I can't imagine there's an epistemological base for your 90% claim or the claim of widespread pathological misogynists among trans women, but if you have research to back it please share. Interesting bit about Joan of Arc though.
I have read a number of articles on this topic, but I don’t understand why the two boxers that are genetically male aren’t competing in the male category with men. Journalists should ask the boxers about this and ask the IOP about this. All I am reading is comments from people saying the situation is unfair. Of course it is. The Algerian boxer, the Chinese boxer and the IOP need to do some long sessions with good journalists- they have a lot to explain.
Madeleine Kearns is leaving out a key fact The IBA is not a credible organization. It is run by people with ties to Vladimir Putin. And they seem to be trying to throw a monkey wrench into the Paris games in retaliation for being barred from competition.
Anyone talking the IBA's for it on this issue is a fool. But a journalist that does that is an irresponsible journalist.
These women (yes, I will use that term until it is proven otherwise) have been fighting for years. At least one of them competed in the Tokyo Olympics. The controversy started after the IBA made that very dubious claim, which came three days after Khelif defeated a Russian boxer. Hmmmm.
This is not journalism. This is righht-wing propaganda. They are trying to forward the narrative that transgender ideology is "destroying female sports". It's pure bullshit.
Sorry, you're the only one looking like a fool in this discussion.
The IBA said they both have XY chromosomes. That's more than enough to disqualify them from women's competitions. A 5-minute test is needed to check which is true, but the IOC refuses to do it. Moreover, both tried to go to court when they were disqualified in 2023, but almost immediately withdrew their appeals.
Putin can say that September follows August, and I'll agree with him, but you, I'm almost sure, will call me a Russian troll
I don’t know anything about boxing, but I took care of two boxers in the ER in 1979 who were killed in the ring in Montreal. It was the same boxer who killed both of them. I’ve never heard of anything like that since, but boxing can be pretty dangerous, I would think.
Boxing can be extremely dangerous. There’s a reason the ref’s final instruction to the fighters is, “Protect yourselves at all times.”
Untrained fighters punch people to death in bar fights fairly often - trained fighters wearing what are essentially one-pound fistweights can be that much more deadly if their opponent isn’t at their level. In your ER, I’ve no doubt you’ve seen what a grown man, despite the incoordination of drunkenness, can do to a woman or child - while women are often more capable than conventional wisdom assumes, they simply did not evolve to be fighters on the same level as men. This is largely because men are more expendable - the same reason male birds have colorful feathers, the man’s role is to deal with threats while the female’s is to nurture the young. Sure, you don’t wanna mess with a mama bear, but god forbid you ever invite papa into that equation.
That really is the crux of the issue, here, that biological men simply have no place in women’s sports because the evolutionary scale simply isn’t close to balanced in this regard.
If you’re suggesting that dangerous sports simply shouldn’t be played at all, that’s a massive tangent.
There are lavishly funded organizations that pressure groups like the IOC into accepting this gender idiocy. See NYT article yesterday re: GLAAD. There are no well-funded organizations advocating normalcy and common sense. Regular folks are losing the battle.
Love your clever ditty, but I must note that you yourself to a degree have fallen under the influence of the gender police who decades ago initiated a campaign to change the language. They declared that the universal pronouns "he" and "him" were unfair to women [in my opinion they were no such thing] and we have been saddled with the awkward "he/she" and "him/her" for so long that it feels normal to many people. Even worse, you will find many instances of the feminine pronouns being used as universal in exactly the same way that the masculine pronouns were. I think it's a stupid and dangerous practice, and leads to such things as men pretending to be women resulting in a playing field that is far from level. I hope you won't object if I amend your verse in a way that makes it politically incorrect to gender sissies, and truer. By the way, I'm speaking from the distaff side.
Having a biological man completing with a biological woman in a combat sport is absolutely unethical bordering criminal. What if the female athlete was hurt badly? It’s inexcusable
the media covered up for demented joe biden and only after he was exposed in the farcical debate did they stop. yet they never did apologize or even try to justify their lies. just like with covid. just like with this. this pro trans agenda is literally not following the science. it proves that facts do not matter more than ideology and that the lame stream media is just another cog in the deceit/delusion/lies machine. the real crime though is for all their advancement against the oppression that paternalism has demonstrated against them, its women who are not being more overt [palestinian protest level overt] in their defiance of this ideology.
It’s ironic liberal democrats continue to voice concern for women’s rights, health etc but fail to protect them from male violence in the name of “sports” I grew up when the IOC tested for males in disguise whether by hormone therapy or steroid / testosterone use.
This gender/sex debacle is the single most baffling and nutty “woke” issue. How did we get from Title 9 - the 1972 federal law establishing women’s sports in schools to ensure women equal rights to play women’s sports (as men had long enjoyed men’s sports) - to this Krazy business that dissolves that law and allows men to compete w women? The whole point of Title 9 was to establish and protect women’s sports. And why does everyone refer to men who do this as women? Why is Khalif referred to as a “she”? He is free to pursue his sexuality as he wishes, but he should not be free to compete in women’s sports. Because he is not, in fact, a women. And he should not be able to dictate language and expression by the vast majority of the population that has common sense. Does it all come down to not “offending” him by referring to him as a man and preventing him from entering women’s sports? Really? And his supposed feeling of offense outweighs the interest of real women to compete against each other? Any sensible fellow in that situation wouldn’t actually be offended anyway. He knows perfectly well he is a man. The whole thing is a blizzard of foolishness.
Are we sure she tested positive for XY? I'm reading different reporting on this. "Unspecified gender test" is what I see IBA reporting.
Do we know her masculinization occurred via a Y chromosome vs adrenal? could she be XX with adrenal hyperplasia?
Even for rare patients with XY, one can be indistinguishable from female phenotype with Complete Androgen Insensitivity (for the sticklers, of course she wouldn't have a uterus or ovaries, I'm strictly referring to external phenotype that would impact sex-specific spaces and sports, not her medical care). There would be no reason to put an XY female with CAIS into the male division. That person would be at risk in that scenario.
This is not a clear cut transgender female who went through male puberty, competed as an adult in their sport and then transitioned, which obviously is abhorrent.
I don't know that this situation should be forced through the culture war filter until we know more.
what's clear though, boxing oversight is a shit show.
"what's clear though, boxing oversight is a shit show."
So is modern journalism, to all our misfortune. How, in the "information age," can it be so impossible to get accurate information?
I wasn't going to watch the Olympics, but my wife wanted to so I joined her. I gradually got sucked in and I was watching more than her.
Then I watched a man punching a woman in the face. No More.
Serious question here: if the point is to break down gender binaries, then why isn't anyone talking about adding categories so that athletes who don't fit neatly into male or female categories can still compete? Logistically it would take some effort, but it has the potential to be a compromise that would satisfy concerns for XX/cisgender female athletes *and* continue to allow gender non-binary athletes to participate in sports at elite levels. We already have examples of it in less competitive sports where there are male, female, and co-ed teams.
Technically there are no male teams, just women’s teams and coed teams. The problem with your compromise approach is that an insufficient number of athletes actually choose their option when offered.
Let me enlighten you a little on this issue.
A similar attempt was made in international cycling, if I'm not mistaken. In addition to the men's and women's categories, they introduced a third, open category, but the trouble is, no one applied to participate in it.
The reason is obvious. It's easy and pleasant to beat women.
Fair point, despite the opening sentence, which is pretty patronizing and doesn't add any substance. Like I said, it would take some effort, but since it didn't work once, does it mean it can't be pursued again and/or in other sports? If there are rules around gender assignment at birth, hormone levels, gender at time of puberty, etc. it could help to solve the problem that international cycling had (also, from what I could find, they added the "open category about a year ago so has there been enough time for proof of concept??). I just don't buy that trans female athletes are nefarious misogynists. There has to be a reasonable solution to this issue.
The biggest obstacle comes with the idea of classifying transgender athletes as anything but inarguably the sex for which they claim to identify.
Having an “open” or “trans” or miscellaneous category for such will only be seen as a bigoted effort against their womanhood. Is it worth trying again? From an ethical standpoint, sure, but sports (even the Olympics, in this day and age) is business and creating a whole new category is expensive and likely throwing good money after bad.
Reasonable solutions are only ever reached among reasonable people; this is a matter of dealing with children throwing tantrums.
I don't care about the problems of trans people. Strictly speaking, despite all the noise in the press and the cries of academics, there are so few of them that the Paralympic Games could solve all their problems.
I am sure that at least 90% of men who imagine themselves to be women are mentally abnormal, no matter what "modern doctors" say. And yes, yes, many of them are pathological misogynists.
In the case with boxers, everything I said has nothing to do with it. They have a common problem of developmental deviation, tests for it used to be mandatory for women, but "science" does not stand still.
By the way, Joan of Arc had the same problem :)
PS. For the reference
https://glreview.org/article/article-577/
She didn't menstruate - that was one of the accusers' arguments. Since the battle for transgender rights was not in vogue during those dark times, it's unlikely that the accusers made this up.
I do care about the problems of trans people. They should be able to live with peace and freedom just like anyone else. What I struggle with are the details because I believe XX/cisgender female athletes deserve fair competition, particularly in the highest levels of any given sport (post puberty age groups). I also believe that trans people - and what we're really talking about here is trans women - should be able to have an outlet for athletic competition at elite levels...just not against XX/cisgender women.
I can't imagine there's an epistemological base for your 90% claim or the claim of widespread pathological misogynists among trans women, but if you have research to back it please share. Interesting bit about Joan of Arc though.
I have read a number of articles on this topic, but I don’t understand why the two boxers that are genetically male aren’t competing in the male category with men. Journalists should ask the boxers about this and ask the IOP about this. All I am reading is comments from people saying the situation is unfair. Of course it is. The Algerian boxer, the Chinese boxer and the IOP need to do some long sessions with good journalists- they have a lot to explain.
Madeleine Kearns is leaving out a key fact The IBA is not a credible organization. It is run by people with ties to Vladimir Putin. And they seem to be trying to throw a monkey wrench into the Paris games in retaliation for being barred from competition.
Anyone talking the IBA's for it on this issue is a fool. But a journalist that does that is an irresponsible journalist.
These women (yes, I will use that term until it is proven otherwise) have been fighting for years. At least one of them competed in the Tokyo Olympics. The controversy started after the IBA made that very dubious claim, which came three days after Khelif defeated a Russian boxer. Hmmmm.
This is not journalism. This is righht-wing propaganda. They are trying to forward the narrative that transgender ideology is "destroying female sports". It's pure bullshit.
Sorry, you're the only one looking like a fool in this discussion.
The IBA said they both have XY chromosomes. That's more than enough to disqualify them from women's competitions. A 5-minute test is needed to check which is true, but the IOC refuses to do it. Moreover, both tried to go to court when they were disqualified in 2023, but almost immediately withdrew their appeals.
Putin can say that September follows August, and I'll agree with him, but you, I'm almost sure, will call me a Russian troll
Look into the credibility of the IBA. The people behind it have ties to Putin.
Did you read what I wrote? Try again, please…
We have entered the Twilight Zone. The fact that anyone is remotely okay with this is unconscionable.
Does the free press stand by this reporting? It has been very difficult to know what to think on this topic with these specific athletes.
Is this person intersex or trans or are they a biological female?
It seems to be trivially easy to state the answer to this question and restore trust in the fairness of sport.
Also seems to require a followup from the free press - do they still stand by this reporting?
I don’t know anything about boxing, but I took care of two boxers in the ER in 1979 who were killed in the ring in Montreal. It was the same boxer who killed both of them. I’ve never heard of anything like that since, but boxing can be pretty dangerous, I would think.
Boxing can be extremely dangerous. There’s a reason the ref’s final instruction to the fighters is, “Protect yourselves at all times.”
Untrained fighters punch people to death in bar fights fairly often - trained fighters wearing what are essentially one-pound fistweights can be that much more deadly if their opponent isn’t at their level. In your ER, I’ve no doubt you’ve seen what a grown man, despite the incoordination of drunkenness, can do to a woman or child - while women are often more capable than conventional wisdom assumes, they simply did not evolve to be fighters on the same level as men. This is largely because men are more expendable - the same reason male birds have colorful feathers, the man’s role is to deal with threats while the female’s is to nurture the young. Sure, you don’t wanna mess with a mama bear, but god forbid you ever invite papa into that equation.
That really is the crux of the issue, here, that biological men simply have no place in women’s sports because the evolutionary scale simply isn’t close to balanced in this regard.
If you’re suggesting that dangerous sports simply shouldn’t be played at all, that’s a massive tangent.
There are lavishly funded organizations that pressure groups like the IOC into accepting this gender idiocy. See NYT article yesterday re: GLAAD. There are no well-funded organizations advocating normalcy and common sense. Regular folks are losing the battle.
Sing to the tune of 'If You're Happy & Want To Show It Clap Your Hands':
If a person has a penis, they’re a man
If a person has a penis, they’re a man
If they don’t want to lose it
Even if they don't use it
If a person has a penis, they’re a man.
If a person has a nutsack, they’re a man
If a person has a nutsack, they’re a man
They can tuck it to conceal it
Let it dangle and reveal it
If a person has a nutsack, they’re a man.
If they amputate their bits, they’re still a man
If they grow a pair of tits, they’re still a man
If the chromosome's a 'Y' …
They will ALWAYS be a guy
If they weren’t born a woman, their a man!
Love your clever ditty, but I must note that you yourself to a degree have fallen under the influence of the gender police who decades ago initiated a campaign to change the language. They declared that the universal pronouns "he" and "him" were unfair to women [in my opinion they were no such thing] and we have been saddled with the awkward "he/she" and "him/her" for so long that it feels normal to many people. Even worse, you will find many instances of the feminine pronouns being used as universal in exactly the same way that the masculine pronouns were. I think it's a stupid and dangerous practice, and leads to such things as men pretending to be women resulting in a playing field that is far from level. I hope you won't object if I amend your verse in a way that makes it politically incorrect to gender sissies, and truer. By the way, I'm speaking from the distaff side.
If a person has a penis, he's a man
If a person has a penis, he's a man
If he doesn't want to lose it
Even if he doesn't use it
If a person has a penis, he's a man.
If a person has a nutsack, he's a man
If a person has a nutsack, he's a man
He can tuck it to conceal it
Let it dangle and reveal it
If a person has a nutsack, he's a man.
If he amputates his bits, he's still a man
If he grows a pair of tits, he's still a man
If the chromosome's a 'Y' …
He will ALWAYS be a guy
If he wasn’t born a woman, he's a man!
Having a biological man completing with a biological woman in a combat sport is absolutely unethical bordering criminal. What if the female athlete was hurt badly? It’s inexcusable
the media covered up for demented joe biden and only after he was exposed in the farcical debate did they stop. yet they never did apologize or even try to justify their lies. just like with covid. just like with this. this pro trans agenda is literally not following the science. it proves that facts do not matter more than ideology and that the lame stream media is just another cog in the deceit/delusion/lies machine. the real crime though is for all their advancement against the oppression that paternalism has demonstrated against them, its women who are not being more overt [palestinian protest level overt] in their defiance of this ideology.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-LXLYQPpDY/?igsh=c2hpNnNreHRyb3Nx
It’s ironic liberal democrats continue to voice concern for women’s rights, health etc but fail to protect them from male violence in the name of “sports” I grew up when the IOC tested for males in disguise whether by hormone therapy or steroid / testosterone use.
Mark Adams is human garbage.