The data about life expectancy is misleading. American life expectancy at birth is lower than other developed countries by about a year or two. But American life expectancy at age 35 is higher. The reason is that we have a higher murder rate, and it affects people under age 35. So it is a story about gun control. If you are talking about health care, there is no doubt America is well above other countries. The data on surviving major health issues (cancer, heart disease) in the US is much better than other countries.
I heard confusion in defining the "American Dream" as a societal aspiration (that informs policy) versus a personal aspiration (that informs behavior). The distinction matters, given that the latter would necessarily vary by individual. That said, I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of general agreement among the panelists.
I appreciated the debate even though I disagree with the “final score”, which depended on a crowd of Washington DC elites (I presume). The “NO” side presented arguments that are far more representative of the majority of the country, imho. I think that with an objective audience as scorekeepers they would win.
And while financial well being isn’t the whole game, it enables most of the rest of it. I don’t see my children and grandchildren doing as well as me and they’re having fewer options with their lives. Their generations’ stress and well being show it.
Note: I have not watched the debate yet and am responidng only to the written piece.
The following is the American Dream defined in this piece:
"The “American Dream” is the most important of our national myths. It’s the idea that, with hard work and determination, anyone in this country can achieve middle-class security, own a home, start a family, and provide the children they raise with a better life than they had."
As i have written in these pages previously, I do not think that the manner in which the American Dream is defined is correct. Or at best, it is limiting.
More accurately, I think the American Dream is having the freedom to pursue one's own unique dreams. And, with this definition, the most important part is "one's own" as opposed to expectations of parents, peers, society et. al. One's dream might fall directly in line with the the above paragraph's summary but it may not.
Relatedly, however one defines it, currently entirely too much "power" is placed in circumstances and far too little in the individual. If that does not seem right take a hard look at the the proliferation of "identity politics" which firmly places power in outside circumstances and denies the agency of the individual in favor of the group.
The trades are not all romance, they really take their toll on the human body. It's rare folks doing these jobs full time don't have arthritis or worse in problem knees, shoulders, feet, and backs. There's a reason folks in these 'real' jobs try to push their kids into different jobs.
Wonderful debate. Much better than the one afterwards. I had a friend who once asked me "why is the US was so rich and powerful?". It's a really good question, and I'd like to hear a debate on it.
This was SO good. As a native-born beneficiary of the American dream, I am on the “Alive and well” side, but very much appreciated being able to hear and process the “alive-but-not-well” viewpoints expressed here. Both sides made good points and agreed that there’s work to be done. I would add that if we didn’t have any problems, flaws or disparities, then the American dream, which focuses on bettering ourselves or improving our situations, would have no reason to exist. Keep up the good work, Free Press and FIRE.
The entrepreneurial spirit, coupled with an unregulated economy, is the foundation of the American Dream’s success. As a society we’re have put too much stock in the myth that a college degree is the proper shortcut to the American Dream.
My two cents. The failure of the public educational system has created a permanent under class with Mcjob level skillsets. Those who find a way into private schools do better and if they enter the professions are on their way to the American dream. So its still there for governmental-the biggest area of job growth currently, unionized, and the professional classes, but everyone else flipping burgers is looking at a grim future.
The American dream. That my children are more successful than my wife and I, monetarily, family and happiness. Unfortunately the first two don't guarantee the third. But we all work at it. goals for life.
Sometime around 2010-2014 I realized that the US had always been a flat society where the vast majority thought of themselves as "middle class", but was heading into a new era. The US was still sorting people upward and downward based on merit, but after time when a society does that patterns start to emerge. With less immigration (at the time), there were fewer stories of those immigrants climbing to the top. With NAFTA entrenched and China well-established in global trade, we were shedding jobs at the low end in return for cheaper goods for all. So, clearly, the more well off and less well off were being established.
In the end, I think the American Dream is there for those in a certain class or those with talent and ambition. But we've also reached the point closer to a well-established society with classes with less movement. We're nowhere near as entrenched as say, British society of the 1800's, but we're no longer immune from those lines forming. America now has a large and growing upper class that still thinks it's middle class and has absolutely zero idea how to effectively work with its fellow members of society in a constructive way.
I recall this hitting me most deeply during the pandemic when, engaged with the staff of the Governor of our state, I realized something about those in power. The guy in charge of much of the health planning was an incredibly competent and smart guy who happened to be in an ethnic minority - not a DEI hire at all, incredibly capable. He had gone to an absolute top school and was smart and capable. And he had absolutely zero idea how regular people of his ethnic group lived or were suffering in the pandemic. When he talked, it was clear that he thought everyone in the world lived and reacted to situations exactly like he and his college friends did and would - the people of his class. The whole of our upper class college educated population thinks this way, and they can't put themselves in others' shoes at all. The guy didn't even get that the people he supposedly "represented" by his ethnicity lived in multigenerational housing situations that put them in a higher risk class for COVID. Instead of coming to them with solutions for their situations, he was looking for ways to bring them to his level of understanding. It was eye opening, for sure.
I suppose it's optimistic to think that everyone has the potential to be a college professor, that manufacturing line operators can simply walk upstairs and draw up new manufacturing line designs on a computer, that police will start to make split second decisions the same way a college professor would decide when watching it in slo-mo on his computer, etc. But we should probably realize that the upper classes need to start thinking of the world as one where they work with and for the broader population that at the same time works for them, not demanding compliance from them but negotiating for mutual success, meeting them where they are.
The American Dream is a nebulous term, so pretty much all arguments are shaped by whichever definition one gives it.
What we do have, is enormous choice. We don't have enormous wisdom. What we do have is enormous opportunity. What we don't have are sufficient ways to enhance access to those opportunities.
What we have is a society subject to lots of manipulation, and it is much easier to manipulate from a negative (anger, sadness) than a positive (happiness, fun). Yes, leaders have an incentive to make people angry because angry people are more easily manipulated (see the college protests for example).
We're not in a great place, but its not the failure of this nebulous dream. That's there for most who want it. Its the ability to exploit human nature that is doing so much harm. The younger people are, the easier they are to exploit. I don't think that's going away. Its probably getting worse.
What an excellent and thoughtful debate. This type of civil exchange of ideas, once common among educated people in our country, unfortunately seems to be in decline.
Perhaps if the ability to engage in civil dialogue was emphasized as a necessary skill set in our schools and universities, an even larger percentage of our country would have an optimistic take on the American dream.
Individuals who are bereft of the tools and opportunities for such expression very well may have a “grouchier” perspective on American life.
The data about life expectancy is misleading. American life expectancy at birth is lower than other developed countries by about a year or two. But American life expectancy at age 35 is higher. The reason is that we have a higher murder rate, and it affects people under age 35. So it is a story about gun control. If you are talking about health care, there is no doubt America is well above other countries. The data on surviving major health issues (cancer, heart disease) in the US is much better than other countries.
I heard confusion in defining the "American Dream" as a societal aspiration (that informs policy) versus a personal aspiration (that informs behavior). The distinction matters, given that the latter would necessarily vary by individual. That said, I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of general agreement among the panelists.
I appreciated the debate even though I disagree with the “final score”, which depended on a crowd of Washington DC elites (I presume). The “NO” side presented arguments that are far more representative of the majority of the country, imho. I think that with an objective audience as scorekeepers they would win.
And while financial well being isn’t the whole game, it enables most of the rest of it. I don’t see my children and grandchildren doing as well as me and they’re having fewer options with their lives. Their generations’ stress and well being show it.
Note: I have not watched the debate yet and am responidng only to the written piece.
The following is the American Dream defined in this piece:
"The “American Dream” is the most important of our national myths. It’s the idea that, with hard work and determination, anyone in this country can achieve middle-class security, own a home, start a family, and provide the children they raise with a better life than they had."
As i have written in these pages previously, I do not think that the manner in which the American Dream is defined is correct. Or at best, it is limiting.
More accurately, I think the American Dream is having the freedom to pursue one's own unique dreams. And, with this definition, the most important part is "one's own" as opposed to expectations of parents, peers, society et. al. One's dream might fall directly in line with the the above paragraph's summary but it may not.
Relatedly, however one defines it, currently entirely too much "power" is placed in circumstances and far too little in the individual. If that does not seem right take a hard look at the the proliferation of "identity politics" which firmly places power in outside circumstances and denies the agency of the individual in favor of the group.
The trades are not all romance, they really take their toll on the human body. It's rare folks doing these jobs full time don't have arthritis or worse in problem knees, shoulders, feet, and backs. There's a reason folks in these 'real' jobs try to push their kids into different jobs.
We need less people getting degrees and more going into the trades. A plumber or mechanic makes a lot more than a barista
Wonderful debate. Much better than the one afterwards. I had a friend who once asked me "why is the US was so rich and powerful?". It's a really good question, and I'd like to hear a debate on it.
This was SO good. As a native-born beneficiary of the American dream, I am on the “Alive and well” side, but very much appreciated being able to hear and process the “alive-but-not-well” viewpoints expressed here. Both sides made good points and agreed that there’s work to be done. I would add that if we didn’t have any problems, flaws or disparities, then the American dream, which focuses on bettering ourselves or improving our situations, would have no reason to exist. Keep up the good work, Free Press and FIRE.
The entrepreneurial spirit, coupled with an unregulated economy, is the foundation of the American Dream’s success. As a society we’re have put too much stock in the myth that a college degree is the proper shortcut to the American Dream.
There are those who work for a living and those who vote for a living.
My two cents. The failure of the public educational system has created a permanent under class with Mcjob level skillsets. Those who find a way into private schools do better and if they enter the professions are on their way to the American dream. So its still there for governmental-the biggest area of job growth currently, unionized, and the professional classes, but everyone else flipping burgers is looking at a grim future.
The American dream. That my children are more successful than my wife and I, monetarily, family and happiness. Unfortunately the first two don't guarantee the third. But we all work at it. goals for life.
Sort of a side note… it’s hard to change people’s minds.
Sometime around 2010-2014 I realized that the US had always been a flat society where the vast majority thought of themselves as "middle class", but was heading into a new era. The US was still sorting people upward and downward based on merit, but after time when a society does that patterns start to emerge. With less immigration (at the time), there were fewer stories of those immigrants climbing to the top. With NAFTA entrenched and China well-established in global trade, we were shedding jobs at the low end in return for cheaper goods for all. So, clearly, the more well off and less well off were being established.
In the end, I think the American Dream is there for those in a certain class or those with talent and ambition. But we've also reached the point closer to a well-established society with classes with less movement. We're nowhere near as entrenched as say, British society of the 1800's, but we're no longer immune from those lines forming. America now has a large and growing upper class that still thinks it's middle class and has absolutely zero idea how to effectively work with its fellow members of society in a constructive way.
I recall this hitting me most deeply during the pandemic when, engaged with the staff of the Governor of our state, I realized something about those in power. The guy in charge of much of the health planning was an incredibly competent and smart guy who happened to be in an ethnic minority - not a DEI hire at all, incredibly capable. He had gone to an absolute top school and was smart and capable. And he had absolutely zero idea how regular people of his ethnic group lived or were suffering in the pandemic. When he talked, it was clear that he thought everyone in the world lived and reacted to situations exactly like he and his college friends did and would - the people of his class. The whole of our upper class college educated population thinks this way, and they can't put themselves in others' shoes at all. The guy didn't even get that the people he supposedly "represented" by his ethnicity lived in multigenerational housing situations that put them in a higher risk class for COVID. Instead of coming to them with solutions for their situations, he was looking for ways to bring them to his level of understanding. It was eye opening, for sure.
I suppose it's optimistic to think that everyone has the potential to be a college professor, that manufacturing line operators can simply walk upstairs and draw up new manufacturing line designs on a computer, that police will start to make split second decisions the same way a college professor would decide when watching it in slo-mo on his computer, etc. But we should probably realize that the upper classes need to start thinking of the world as one where they work with and for the broader population that at the same time works for them, not demanding compliance from them but negotiating for mutual success, meeting them where they are.
fwiw, a lot of this hinged on definition.
The American Dream is a nebulous term, so pretty much all arguments are shaped by whichever definition one gives it.
What we do have, is enormous choice. We don't have enormous wisdom. What we do have is enormous opportunity. What we don't have are sufficient ways to enhance access to those opportunities.
What we have is a society subject to lots of manipulation, and it is much easier to manipulate from a negative (anger, sadness) than a positive (happiness, fun). Yes, leaders have an incentive to make people angry because angry people are more easily manipulated (see the college protests for example).
We're not in a great place, but its not the failure of this nebulous dream. That's there for most who want it. Its the ability to exploit human nature that is doing so much harm. The younger people are, the easier they are to exploit. I don't think that's going away. Its probably getting worse.
What an excellent and thoughtful debate. This type of civil exchange of ideas, once common among educated people in our country, unfortunately seems to be in decline.
Perhaps if the ability to engage in civil dialogue was emphasized as a necessary skill set in our schools and universities, an even larger percentage of our country would have an optimistic take on the American dream.
Individuals who are bereft of the tools and opportunities for such expression very well may have a “grouchier” perspective on American life.