I love this debate format. Please keep doing these.
I wish Seneca and Kmele were on a presidential ticket I could vote for. Michael was also good, but I have to say I stopped taking Lara seriously as soon as she did the disingenuous "blue CITY vs red STATE" comparison.
I do think the USA having a higher incarceration rate than other countries is worthy of deeper investigation. I would hypothesize there is a correlation/causation between non-marital birth rates and incarceration rates but I'm open to being wrong.
In a rural Illinois county, I once defended a woman charged with stealing a bottle of nail polish. In too many big cities, people can steal hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise, and many store managers won't even report it because they know nothing will be done if the thief is caught. Criminals tend to escalate their level of crime, and not prosecuting minor crimes is just asking for more serious ones.
People say the police should just do their job. But without the respect and cooperation of the citizenry, that's impossible. We need more police and better training, but we also must restore the idea that police are here to help, that they go places and do things the rest of us won't, and that, absent actual misconduct, they deserve our honor and thanks.
felt like the points were muddled. more $ doesn't mean growing a department. Actual SF police force 2010 made up 0.24% of the population--today just about 0.20%. That is a 20% loss of coverage.
Lara's point about data seems to be that we can dismiss those data we don't like so just ignore them but then goes on to cite data. Which is very odd for any person to do. Came across condescending as well.
I'm with Kmele regarding drug prohibition if we can follow a Swedish or Portuguese model, where help and accountability go hand in hand with legalization. Also crack and cocaine should be prosecuted at the same level, not one vastly more illegal than the other, that shit is racist.
Great debate, I agree that the disintegration of the nuclear family is a major factor in the increase in criminal activity.
Two parent families began a dramatic decline following LBJ’s war on poverty program regarding aid to families with dependent children which provided funding for single mothers.
I wonder if we reverse this policy, we would see a growth in two parent households and a slow but steady reduction in juvenile crime?
Michael, Seneca and Kmele would be a dynamite team. They possess the heart, brainpower and grit to author an honest and thoughtful blueprint for criminal justice reform. Lara was too invested in being right, somewhat unbending.
Oh wow, a Free Press commenting section that hasn't been closed down yet? Didn't think they made 'em like this here anymore since Bari brought on the new peeps who seem... way too much like the old peeps, if you know what I mean.
My point is, Bari hired some people to be editors and writers who act like people do at legacy media outlets. Comment sections are getting shut down on TFP on the regular now, when before they would stay open forever.
It means I support what I thought the mission statement of TFP is supposed to be, but if they're just going to start mirroring the awful, Woke outlets like WaPo and NYT and CNN, then I'll sadly not renew.
We need to get back to the balance we had. Some people Bari brought in seem to have incredibly thin skin and a preference for their former echo chambers.
Thank you to all who made this debate possible. And to those who attended. Seeing so many in the audience who have active interest made me feel more hopeful about our citizenry. It was so grand to hear civil debate. Thank you, Free Press.
I agree with Seneca that Progressives have got in their own way to realize their ideals. I agree with Michael that a larger police force would make it easier to educate and eliminate bad performers and make the job not so monumental for those officers. Leaving the mentally ill and the drug addicted to live on the streets and allowing low level thievery and looting is inhumane to my mind.
> Clean house. When you say you don't think that we need cops, and you regularly rub shoulders with people who say "all cops are bastards" and "we don't need cops, abolish the police", you've got to jettison those people from your circle for me take you seriously. Otherwise it's a grift to me. You got to call them out.
Holy fuck! More Seneca Scott, please.
It's difficult to land cleanly on either side. It seems to me that it is very much dependent on the particular reforms that are meant when we say "criminal justice reform."
I fucking love Kmele (go subscribe to The Fifth Column podcast!) and I think his argument is persuasive: we should always be asking ourselves "can we do better?" Striving to make better decisions today than we did yesterday will inevitably require some "reform."
I have to admit that I think I'm biased against Lara. I've heard her name before, but I'm not really familiar with her or any of her ideas. Also, one of the things I find really obnoxious is when people clap their hands to emphasize words/syllables while they are speaking. While she wasn't exactly clapping her hands, and I don't think it should really count against her, you could routinely hear her banging her hands together and she was the only one of the debaters to do it.
Anyway, on 9 November, 2019 after Chesa Boudin was elected, Lara tweeted:
> No words for this. Just amazing. Chesa Boudin, reformer public defender, wins election as San Francisco’s new DA
I bring this up only because she mentioned Boudin's recall, possibly as if she were in favor (her tone, I think, was neutral). And perhaps she was. Perhaps she had changed her mind about Boudin. But that brings me back to Seneca's quote above: clean your fucking house. Call them out. Publicly.
I think Michael Shellenberger is a reliable source of information, and I think he presented his argument well.
In the end, I don't think Seneca, Michael, and Kmele are on opposite sides. <3 The FP.
Education, nutrition and our children feeling safe, can be an important factor in overall drug, behavioral and mental health issues as they grow. The richest country in the world still has reampant property, what do expect when children fear every moment of their lives. Create a policy that takes care of our children, and then maybe our Police, and our policies will work better. Great debate!
This is because big Food and big Pharma want to keep people sick and addicted to their food. Starting them young means more long term profits. There is plenty of research that shows poor health makes for more violent behavior. This hurts the poorist communities the most. My daughter works at a very poor highschool and she buys food for her kids when they come for help after class. My husband is a police officer in a city near Boston. Community police make for better relationships. Most police officers really care about the people they serve. Seneca is right - the goal of most police is to make it home safely to their families. And they want the same for their community.
I love this paper so much I want to subscribe even harder.
I love this debate format. Please keep doing these.
I wish Seneca and Kmele were on a presidential ticket I could vote for. Michael was also good, but I have to say I stopped taking Lara seriously as soon as she did the disingenuous "blue CITY vs red STATE" comparison.
I do think the USA having a higher incarceration rate than other countries is worthy of deeper investigation. I would hypothesize there is a correlation/causation between non-marital birth rates and incarceration rates but I'm open to being wrong.
In a rural Illinois county, I once defended a woman charged with stealing a bottle of nail polish. In too many big cities, people can steal hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise, and many store managers won't even report it because they know nothing will be done if the thief is caught. Criminals tend to escalate their level of crime, and not prosecuting minor crimes is just asking for more serious ones.
People say the police should just do their job. But without the respect and cooperation of the citizenry, that's impossible. We need more police and better training, but we also must restore the idea that police are here to help, that they go places and do things the rest of us won't, and that, absent actual misconduct, they deserve our honor and thanks.
felt like the points were muddled. more $ doesn't mean growing a department. Actual SF police force 2010 made up 0.24% of the population--today just about 0.20%. That is a 20% loss of coverage.
Lara's point about data seems to be that we can dismiss those data we don't like so just ignore them but then goes on to cite data. Which is very odd for any person to do. Came across condescending as well.
I feel like the truth is going to be in the middle of them both, we'll see how I feel after I watch it.
"Do your job."
Yeah you Mr. Police officer, clean up this town already, by yourself, we won't help. LOL
I'm with Kmele regarding drug prohibition if we can follow a Swedish or Portuguese model, where help and accountability go hand in hand with legalization. Also crack and cocaine should be prosecuted at the same level, not one vastly more illegal than the other, that shit is racist.
They are all wrong: The Wire
I wonder where Lara lives? Gated?
I could barely get through hearing Lara's opening. She can't really believe the things she said.
I feel like she is the one person up there who is still blinded by progressive ideology.
Great debate, I agree that the disintegration of the nuclear family is a major factor in the increase in criminal activity.
Two parent families began a dramatic decline following LBJ’s war on poverty program regarding aid to families with dependent children which provided funding for single mothers.
I wonder if we reverse this policy, we would see a growth in two parent households and a slow but steady reduction in juvenile crime?
Michael, Seneca and Kmele would be a dynamite team. They possess the heart, brainpower and grit to author an honest and thoughtful blueprint for criminal justice reform. Lara was too invested in being right, somewhat unbending.
All in all, a great debate.
Thank you to The Free Press. V.
I concur.
Great debate, but I’m surprised nobody brought up the connection between missing fathers and incarceration….
They never do. Talk to people like Adam Corolla or Jordan Peterson, and you'd hear it. Even Bill Maher.
Glenn Loury
I was so impressed with Seneca. He was amazing. Thank you for this debate.
Oh wow, a Free Press commenting section that hasn't been closed down yet? Didn't think they made 'em like this here anymore since Bari brought on the new peeps who seem... way too much like the old peeps, if you know what I mean.
This is a weird comment, what’s your point?
My point is, Bari hired some people to be editors and writers who act like people do at legacy media outlets. Comment sections are getting shut down on TFP on the regular now, when before they would stay open forever.
It means I support what I thought the mission statement of TFP is supposed to be, but if they're just going to start mirroring the awful, Woke outlets like WaPo and NYT and CNN, then I'll sadly not renew.
We need to get back to the balance we had. Some people Bari brought in seem to have incredibly thin skin and a preference for their former echo chambers.
Thank you to all who made this debate possible. And to those who attended. Seeing so many in the audience who have active interest made me feel more hopeful about our citizenry. It was so grand to hear civil debate. Thank you, Free Press.
I agree with Seneca that Progressives have got in their own way to realize their ideals. I agree with Michael that a larger police force would make it easier to educate and eliminate bad performers and make the job not so monumental for those officers. Leaving the mentally ill and the drug addicted to live on the streets and allowing low level thievery and looting is inhumane to my mind.
> Clean house. When you say you don't think that we need cops, and you regularly rub shoulders with people who say "all cops are bastards" and "we don't need cops, abolish the police", you've got to jettison those people from your circle for me take you seriously. Otherwise it's a grift to me. You got to call them out.
Holy fuck! More Seneca Scott, please.
It's difficult to land cleanly on either side. It seems to me that it is very much dependent on the particular reforms that are meant when we say "criminal justice reform."
I fucking love Kmele (go subscribe to The Fifth Column podcast!) and I think his argument is persuasive: we should always be asking ourselves "can we do better?" Striving to make better decisions today than we did yesterday will inevitably require some "reform."
I have to admit that I think I'm biased against Lara. I've heard her name before, but I'm not really familiar with her or any of her ideas. Also, one of the things I find really obnoxious is when people clap their hands to emphasize words/syllables while they are speaking. While she wasn't exactly clapping her hands, and I don't think it should really count against her, you could routinely hear her banging her hands together and she was the only one of the debaters to do it.
Anyway, on 9 November, 2019 after Chesa Boudin was elected, Lara tweeted:
> No words for this. Just amazing. Chesa Boudin, reformer public defender, wins election as San Francisco’s new DA
I bring this up only because she mentioned Boudin's recall, possibly as if she were in favor (her tone, I think, was neutral). And perhaps she was. Perhaps she had changed her mind about Boudin. But that brings me back to Seneca's quote above: clean your fucking house. Call them out. Publicly.
I think Michael Shellenberger is a reliable source of information, and I think he presented his argument well.
In the end, I don't think Seneca, Michael, and Kmele are on opposite sides. <3 The FP.
I agree with all of your sentiments here, I'll check out that podcast! I liked him a lot, ending the failed war on drugs is very important.
Education, nutrition and our children feeling safe, can be an important factor in overall drug, behavioral and mental health issues as they grow. The richest country in the world still has reampant property, what do expect when children fear every moment of their lives. Create a policy that takes care of our children, and then maybe our Police, and our policies will work better. Great debate!
This is because big Food and big Pharma want to keep people sick and addicted to their food. Starting them young means more long term profits. There is plenty of research that shows poor health makes for more violent behavior. This hurts the poorist communities the most. My daughter works at a very poor highschool and she buys food for her kids when they come for help after class. My husband is a police officer in a city near Boston. Community police make for better relationships. Most police officers really care about the people they serve. Seneca is right - the goal of most police is to make it home safely to their families. And they want the same for their community.