Again and again, Lillia Gajewski, you pretend to be deaf to what Putin says about Ukraine not being a real state and needed to be eliminated as such. You keep not only repeating Russian propaganda at nauseam, but you repeat only what suits your “narrative”, the endless red herring about poor Russia having to attack to fend off the big ba…
Again and again, Lillia Gajewski, you pretend to be deaf to what Putin says about Ukraine not being a real state and needed to be eliminated as such. You keep not only repeating Russian propaganda at nauseam, but you repeat only what suits your “narrative”, the endless red herring about poor Russia having to attack to fend off the big bad NATO. After seven months of unprovoked agression, you have learned nothing.
In his eyes, it's not a real state. Ukraine as been a part of Russia for as long as Russia has existed. It did not "win" its independence from Russia. It was *granted* its independence from Russia. They *voted* to leave and Russia *let* them leave because they wanted Ukraine to act as a buffer between NATO aligned Europe and them. Think of Puerto Rico suddenly deciding, nope, we want independence and then aligning with Russia and Russia putting nukes there. That's the equivalent.
Ukraine was briefly independent after WWI, snd, in fact, negotiated a peace with Germany before Russia signed Brest-Litovsk. The Baltics and Finland were the first countries to recognize the USSR - and they were among the first to be invaded less than twenty years later. Russia coordinated with Germany in a division of Poland. After WWII, somemof the baltic nations fought insurgencies for nearly a decade. If they werent in NATO now, does anyone think they woild be indepedent still? How other countries behave isnt the spur here - Russia has constant atheistic territorial ambitions. Oh yeah - they tried to take Iran after WWII, and why were the British in Afghanistan long ago? To keep Russia out.
Ukraine got its independence when the USSR collapsed, and ever since then Ukraine has been expecting Russia to eventually reinvade. As it turns out, they were right, so it makes sense they wanted NATO membership as an insurance policy.
Putin invaded Crimea before NATO membership was on the table, so you have the cause and effect backwards.
Putin isn't invading because Ukraine wants to join NATO; Ukraine wants to join NATO because of Putin.
Russia invaded Crimea e days after the start of the Maidan Revolution, a coup of an alerted president supported by the Obama administration. Lilia is right, our hands are not clean in this and we have used Ukraine's admission to NATO, and the EU, as a club.
Ukraine was an original member of the USSR a hundred years ago.
After the collapse of the USSR Ukraine declared itself neutral and had alliances with both Russia and European organizations. There is a significant portion of Ukraine that is ethnic Russian and speaks Russian; 17.8% as of 2022 so that percentage would have been higher if the Crimea were included. But Ukraine's history as Russian is much deeper than that dating to around 900 AD as part of the original Rus. So I suppose Putin is not wrong if he thinks of Ukraine as Russian.
Putin came to power in Russia late 1999. He served as President from then until 2008, was Prime Minister from 2008 until 2012, and President from.2012 until the present. If he does not see Ukraine as a legitimate country he waited a long time to do anything about it. Instead he invaded Crimea two days after a "revolution" aided by the US. He moved into Ukraine on the heels of talk about Ukraine joining NATO but also the EU. I have read that the EU connection would have been very damaging to the Russian economy which is not well-diversified.
So Russia had and has far greater interests in Ukraine than does the US nevertheless we have meddled therein since the Clinton administration. People have opined on here today about acting to ensure stable markets (a la colonislism), to engage in a proxy war to see how our weapons hold up (Military-Industrial Complex crack), and to thwart a global takeover by Putin (hysteria), among others. None of which are justified.
Lastly, all of my statements are my beliefs based on what I have read, in other words my opinion. As I am sure are yours.
Techically, the old capital of Russia was Kiev, so it would be more accurate to say Russia used to be part of Ukraine. I don't see Putin willing to step down and put Zelensky in charge of Russia though, so clearly Putin's love of history has its limits.
The reason there are so many Russian speakers in Ukraine is because the original inhabitants were killed in the Holodomor, aka the Ukrainian Genocide. Russians then moved into the newly vacant land.
When Putin took power, he started with Chechnya, then he invaded Georgia, and then Crimea. Ukraine has wanted to join NATO/EU for years because they knew all along an invasion was likely as long as Putin is in charge.
Technically, there was never a nation of Ukraine until very modern times. But this discussion is becoming tedious. You have your opinions. I have mine. We obviously disagree. I do appreciate the civility.
Again and again, Lillia Gajewski, you pretend to be deaf to what Putin says about Ukraine not being a real state and needed to be eliminated as such. You keep not only repeating Russian propaganda at nauseam, but you repeat only what suits your “narrative”, the endless red herring about poor Russia having to attack to fend off the big bad NATO. After seven months of unprovoked agression, you have learned nothing.
In his eyes, it's not a real state. Ukraine as been a part of Russia for as long as Russia has existed. It did not "win" its independence from Russia. It was *granted* its independence from Russia. They *voted* to leave and Russia *let* them leave because they wanted Ukraine to act as a buffer between NATO aligned Europe and them. Think of Puerto Rico suddenly deciding, nope, we want independence and then aligning with Russia and Russia putting nukes there. That's the equivalent.
Ukraine was briefly independent after WWI, snd, in fact, negotiated a peace with Germany before Russia signed Brest-Litovsk. The Baltics and Finland were the first countries to recognize the USSR - and they were among the first to be invaded less than twenty years later. Russia coordinated with Germany in a division of Poland. After WWII, somemof the baltic nations fought insurgencies for nearly a decade. If they werent in NATO now, does anyone think they woild be indepedent still? How other countries behave isnt the spur here - Russia has constant atheistic territorial ambitions. Oh yeah - they tried to take Iran after WWII, and why were the British in Afghanistan long ago? To keep Russia out.
I agree that’s the backstory. Ukraine chose, Russia agreed, they become a buffer. Though like threesomes, such bargains rarely have happy endings?
Not really, but backstories have relevance.
So does this: https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia
Ukraine got its independence when the USSR collapsed, and ever since then Ukraine has been expecting Russia to eventually reinvade. As it turns out, they were right, so it makes sense they wanted NATO membership as an insurance policy.
Putin invaded Crimea before NATO membership was on the table, so you have the cause and effect backwards.
Putin isn't invading because Ukraine wants to join NATO; Ukraine wants to join NATO because of Putin.
Russia invaded Crimea e days after the start of the Maidan Revolution, a coup of an alerted president supported by the Obama administration. Lilia is right, our hands are not clean in this and we have used Ukraine's admission to NATO, and the EU, as a club.
Supported, yes. Instigated, no. That uprising was already underway; it was a grassroots revolution that the US helped along.
Ukraine sees NATO and the EU as a shield, not a club.
I am neither Russian nor a Putin sympathizer but I would bet Putin sees NATO as a club.
Putin also doesn't see Ukraine as a legitimate country; he sees it as the rightful property of the Kremlin.
Ukraine was an original member of the USSR a hundred years ago.
After the collapse of the USSR Ukraine declared itself neutral and had alliances with both Russia and European organizations. There is a significant portion of Ukraine that is ethnic Russian and speaks Russian; 17.8% as of 2022 so that percentage would have been higher if the Crimea were included. But Ukraine's history as Russian is much deeper than that dating to around 900 AD as part of the original Rus. So I suppose Putin is not wrong if he thinks of Ukraine as Russian.
Putin came to power in Russia late 1999. He served as President from then until 2008, was Prime Minister from 2008 until 2012, and President from.2012 until the present. If he does not see Ukraine as a legitimate country he waited a long time to do anything about it. Instead he invaded Crimea two days after a "revolution" aided by the US. He moved into Ukraine on the heels of talk about Ukraine joining NATO but also the EU. I have read that the EU connection would have been very damaging to the Russian economy which is not well-diversified.
So Russia had and has far greater interests in Ukraine than does the US nevertheless we have meddled therein since the Clinton administration. People have opined on here today about acting to ensure stable markets (a la colonislism), to engage in a proxy war to see how our weapons hold up (Military-Industrial Complex crack), and to thwart a global takeover by Putin (hysteria), among others. None of which are justified.
Lastly, all of my statements are my beliefs based on what I have read, in other words my opinion. As I am sure are yours.
Techically, the old capital of Russia was Kiev, so it would be more accurate to say Russia used to be part of Ukraine. I don't see Putin willing to step down and put Zelensky in charge of Russia though, so clearly Putin's love of history has its limits.
The reason there are so many Russian speakers in Ukraine is because the original inhabitants were killed in the Holodomor, aka the Ukrainian Genocide. Russians then moved into the newly vacant land.
When Putin took power, he started with Chechnya, then he invaded Georgia, and then Crimea. Ukraine has wanted to join NATO/EU for years because they knew all along an invasion was likely as long as Putin is in charge.
Technically, there was never a nation of Ukraine until very modern times. But this discussion is becoming tedious. You have your opinions. I have mine. We obviously disagree. I do appreciate the civility.
You have that completely back-ass-ward.
Try this: https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia
Crimea was invaded well before any discussions of Ukraine joining NATO were underway, so actually it's you who has it back-ass-wards.
I can tell you didn't read the article. The US has been using Ukraine as a pawn.
Ukraine is pretty wily as realpolitik goes; they're not easily used as pawns by anybody.
It's very frustrating that people don't see this.
Sorry, I thought you had commented on something else. Yes, it is very, very frustrating.