Putin is not Hitler. This is not the pre-World War II. This is a fight over Ukraine joining NATO so the US is right on Russia's border, simple as that. Our leaders caused this problem and now they're feeding the beast at our expense by waging a proxy war. And it does us no good to sink our economy and leave ourselves vulnerable trying to save one corrupt regime from another.
Putin is not Hitler. This is not the pre-World War II. This is a fight over Ukraine joining NATO so the US is right on Russia's border, simple as that. Our leaders caused this problem and now they're feeding the beast at our expense by waging a proxy war. And it does us no good to sink our economy and leave ourselves vulnerable trying to save one corrupt regime from another.
I would say not as long as they remain neutral, but it depends on how much Europe crumbles this winter with a shortage of natural gas and our economy crumbles because it can't stand the strain of even a proxy war. If Putin thinks he could pull it off, and Finland has already made noises about joining NATO, or so the media says, who knows. That was always the risk of cajoling Zelensky into not settling with Russia. If Russia sees that it has a chance at more with little risk, why not? Same thing with China and Taiwan and the Middle East and Israel. If they decide the US wolf is just a chihuahua in throwing shadows on the wall, then really there's nothing in their way.
All the more reason to make the Ukraine invasion as painful as possible for Russia; so that they don't come to see invading neighbours as a "low risk" venture.
Well, as you can tell, it's also very painful for us. The price of oil is killing our economy and Germany's economy is teetering, and where it goes, the rest of the world soon follows. We raised rates to drive down inflation, but we'll have to lower rates when the recession deepens into depression, which will once again feed inflation. Hunger pangs tend to trump the imperial ambitions of our leaders. And have you wondered what happens if Putin just decides f--k it all and hits the button? You people live in a fairy land. Again, you can't have both: Putin is so insane and so dastardly that we must involve him in a quagmire in Ukraine to "teach him a lesson" (as if the US is in any position to take the moral high ground in "lesson teaching") and Putin is not so insane and so dastardly to take the rest of the world with him by resorting to nuclear war. I wonder how your brains work. And I see you still haven't read the article, or this would be a much different conversation.
If Putin hits the button, he dies. The man is many things, but suicidal isn't one of them. He doesn't want to see Moscow turned into a smoking crater by nuclear war.
Europe is about to pay for handing their energy policy over to Greta Thunberg, but the US and Canada will be mostly insulated from that. There will be a small recession in North America but nothing severe enough to drop interest rates back down and restart inflation.
Russia is feeling more pain than the West, by far. 80,000 dead Russian soldiers and counting, and calling in the draft will hurt their economy massively. Have you seen how many Russians are fleeing the country?
Also, we didn't "involve" Putin in Ukraine. He chose to invade; we're just helping make it a quagmire instead of an easy win.
Again and again, Lillia Gajewski, you pretend to be deaf to what Putin says about Ukraine not being a real state and needed to be eliminated as such. You keep not only repeating Russian propaganda at nauseam, but you repeat only what suits your тАЬnarrativeтАЭ, the endless red herring about poor Russia having to attack to fend off the big bad NATO. After seven months of unprovoked agression, you have learned nothing.
In his eyes, it's not a real state. Ukraine as been a part of Russia for as long as Russia has existed. It did not "win" its independence from Russia. It was *granted* its independence from Russia. They *voted* to leave and Russia *let* them leave because they wanted Ukraine to act as a buffer between NATO aligned Europe and them. Think of Puerto Rico suddenly deciding, nope, we want independence and then aligning with Russia and Russia putting nukes there. That's the equivalent.
Ukraine was briefly independent after WWI, snd, in fact, negotiated a peace with Germany before Russia signed Brest-Litovsk. The Baltics and Finland were the first countries to recognize the USSR - and they were among the first to be invaded less than twenty years later. Russia coordinated with Germany in a division of Poland. After WWII, somemof the baltic nations fought insurgencies for nearly a decade. If they werent in NATO now, does anyone think they woild be indepedent still? How other countries behave isnt the spur here - Russia has constant atheistic territorial ambitions. Oh yeah - they tried to take Iran after WWII, and why were the British in Afghanistan long ago? To keep Russia out.
Ukraine got its independence when the USSR collapsed, and ever since then Ukraine has been expecting Russia to eventually reinvade. As it turns out, they were right, so it makes sense they wanted NATO membership as an insurance policy.
Putin invaded Crimea before NATO membership was on the table, so you have the cause and effect backwards.
Putin isn't invading because Ukraine wants to join NATO; Ukraine wants to join NATO because of Putin.
Russia invaded Crimea e days after the start of the Maidan Revolution, a coup of an alerted president supported by the Obama administration. Lilia is right, our hands are not clean in this and we have used Ukraine's admission to NATO, and the EU, as a club.
Ukraine was an original member of the USSR a hundred years ago.
After the collapse of the USSR Ukraine declared itself neutral and had alliances with both Russia and European organizations. There is a significant portion of Ukraine that is ethnic Russian and speaks Russian; 17.8% as of 2022 so that percentage would have been higher if the Crimea were included. But Ukraine's history as Russian is much deeper than that dating to around 900 AD as part of the original Rus. So I suppose Putin is not wrong if he thinks of Ukraine as Russian.
Putin came to power in Russia late 1999. He served as President from then until 2008, was Prime Minister from 2008 until 2012, and President from.2012 until the present. If he does not see Ukraine as a legitimate country he waited a long time to do anything about it. Instead he invaded Crimea two days after a "revolution" aided by the US. He moved into Ukraine on the heels of talk about Ukraine joining NATO but also the EU. I have read that the EU connection would have been very damaging to the Russian economy which is not well-diversified.
So Russia had and has far greater interests in Ukraine than does the US nevertheless we have meddled therein since the Clinton administration. People have opined on here today about acting to ensure stable markets (a la colonislism), to engage in a proxy war to see how our weapons hold up (Military-Industrial Complex crack), and to thwart a global takeover by Putin (hysteria), among others. None of which are justified.
Lastly, all of my statements are my beliefs based on what I have read, in other words my opinion. As I am sure are yours.
Techically, the old capital of Russia was Kiev, so it would be more accurate to say Russia used to be part of Ukraine. I don't see Putin willing to step down and put Zelensky in charge of Russia though, so clearly Putin's love of history has its limits.
The reason there are so many Russian speakers in Ukraine is because the original inhabitants were killed in the Holodomor, aka the Ukrainian Genocide. Russians then moved into the newly vacant land.
When Putin took power, he started with Chechnya, then he invaded Georgia, and then Crimea. Ukraine has wanted to join NATO/EU for years because they knew all along an invasion was likely as long as Putin is in charge.
Technically, there was never a nation of Ukraine until very modern times. But this discussion is becoming tedious. You have your opinions. I have mine. We obviously disagree. I do appreciate the civility.
Putin's grievances are small potatoes compared to what happened to Germany in the Treaty of Versailles; if appeasement didn't work then it's sure as shit not going to work now.
Yes, Putin's grievances are small, his economy is small, his military is small . . . how exactly do you expect him to take over Europe? Which is literally the whole justification for our defense of a highly corrupt and autocratic nation. You guys have to pick one: either (a) Russia is this evil superpower headed by a crazed maniac with his hand on the button of nearly 7000 nukes so we need to tread very, very carefully or (b) Russia is a decayed power that Ukraine can easily beat with a few weapons that we've supplied them but Putin is sane enough not to take that personally. You all are living in a Hollywood script where not thinking through the plot doesn't matter because you control the ending. Well, we *don't* control the ending.
тАЬ Which is literally the whole justification for our defense of a highly corrupt and autocratic nationтАЭ
You should begin with a course or basic geography. And then basic history.
No one thinks Putin can overrun all of Europe with his conscript army.
Putin is bombing peaceful cities. Are they perfect cities ? No. Are they blameless and free of corruption ? No. But they are peaceful cities full of women and children. If NATO doesnтАЩt stand up against this, NATO has no purpose.
Putin doesn't want West Germany, only East Germany. His aspiration is to rebuild the Iron Curtain, which would mean roughly 1/2 of Europe gets conquered by the time he's done.
Russia is a decayed power headed by a wannabe conqueror; if he can roll over Ukraine as easily as he rolled over Georgia, then it's a matter of when, not if, he goes after Poland, Finland, and the Baltic states.
If, on the other hand, he gets quagmired in Ukraine, then eventually he'll have to do what the US did in Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan: declare victory and GTFO.
Also, I have been to Hokkaido. Not a Russian to be seen. Now I can't take anything you say seriously because the territories that are disputed are islands north of Hokkaido and not on mainland Japan.
Japan considers those islands part of the Hokkaido Prefecture, so referring to the disputed territory as Hokkaido is an acceptable shorthand.
Think of it like saying Honolulu is in Hawaii, vs. saying it's in "the Hawaiian Islands", since it's technically on Oahu and not on the island of Hawaii. Sure, one term is technically more precise than the other, but that's some seriously pedantic hairsplitting
If you said "Because you said Honolulu is in Hawaii now I can't take anything you say seriously", I'd have a hard time taking anything YOU say seriously. Which, come to think of it, I do. Pedant.
Nice try, but your statement was not, "some islands North and part of the prefecture of Hokkaido", which are NOT the Island of Hokkaido. Russia has had them since after WWII, but Japan signed a treaty giving up all claim to those islands, so comparing them to Crimea is idiotic. Japan was offered two of them by Russia but refused. You compare apples to oranges, which misleads people who don't know exactly what's happened there In an attempt to smear Russia further. I must have hit a nerve if you are now resorting to ad hominem. Now I am absolutely certain you are a Troll.
Every one of those publications has an agenda and are controlled by MSM. I consider not one of them reliable sources. Something independent would be acceptable
Well, according to you and this article, he's not "easily" rolling over them. So we have nothing to worry about, no?
And he's not the only one "quagmired" in Ukraine. You forgot that we are too. Isn't that funny how that happens? The US population gets poorer, the military industrial complex and the politicians it owns get richer, and all this goes on and on and on, and just when we got out of Afghanistan. Funny coincidence that.
If Ukraine had received no support, the rolling over would have gone much easier. Russia is only quagmired because of the support Ukraine has been receiving ever since Putin invaded Crimea.
The US is not quagmired in Ukraine; the US isn't losing thousands of soldiers trying to hold territory in another country. The military industrial complex is getting a nice payday, but it's chump change compared to how much a full-scale war in Eastern Europe would cost, if Putin's ambitions to remake the Iron Curtain were allowed to snowball the way Hitler's Third Reich ambitions did.
Baloney. How does that explain Putin's invasion of Chechnya? How about his invasion of Georgia? Thousands killed and tortured. 12 oligarchs have mysteriously committed suicide in the last year. People who disagree with the regime are jailed or worse.
As I said above, Ukraine isn't "sinking our economy". It has been widely reported that COVID entitlement fraud exceeded $46 billion. Think of all the other government handouts, medicaid payments for example. What do you think the aggregate annual amount of fraud is in our system here? Our problem isn't Ukraine, but our problems will grow if we don't keep Putin in his box.
But NATO is already on RussiaтАЩs border, via the Baltic states and Poland.
Putin himself explained that, under his letтАЩs call it highly idiosyncratic history, Ukraine is not and never was a real country with any existence separate from Russia and its destiny was therefore to return to the fold. And he alone decided when and whether to invade Ukraine.
Talk about NATO etc. as justifications for invading a sovereign state is to fall for political spin and disinformation.
Funny thing is, Ukraine is the original "Rus," and could make the same claim that Rus unification necessitates that Ukraine conquer Russia in order to return its people to the natural order of things. Russia should be careful what it wishes for, it may get it in the form of Ukraine being the conqueror!
Putin's invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO policies, as you pointed out. It's about Putin's vision of him as Czar Vladimir of the United Rus, and alsso conquering a nation rich in resources that he can use, sell, and exploit.
Haver you looked at a map recently? Poland is *not* on Russia's border. And the Baltic states are ridiculously small as to be not a threat with a minuscule connecting border. Meanwhile, you can easily hit Moscow from Ukraine. In fact, Russia has been invaded most every time from that direction. You need to turn off the propagandists, like Common Sense, and go read some history and look at some maps. Russia is a well-armed has-been superpower who sees another internally decaying superpower that is well known for its "regime change as distraction wars" eying a very long stretch of land right along its border. The US itself has started wars and invaded countries over less.
Yes, but it's much easier to mess around with Russia if you're right on their border. You can also mess around in Belarus and Georgia. It's also good for getting Russia to "attack" the US/NATO so you can justify marching troops in. Don't be naive. This is all about putting the US on Russia's doorstep, and we're willing to kill a lot of Ukrainians to do it.
No it isn't. This isn't the1940s. The US doesn't want to have anything to do with Russia. The only thing the US is interested in is Russia not firing off nukes. I will say it again. The US can "mess around" with Russia from wherever it wants to. It just doesn't want to. There is no strategic interest in doing so.
Then why did we sabotage the peace deal after meddling in Ukraine's politics? We *definitely* care about Russia, and even if you can't see it, they can.
It doesn't matter. Russia doesn't want us on their border and given our machinations, who can blame them. We've turned Ukraine into a war zone over a country you seem to think we have no interest in.
Sure, there are so many forces today that want nothing more than to тАЬhit Moscow from UkraineтАЭ, obviously the bloodthirsty NATO being first. You should be on Russian TV, Lillia Gajewski. Or maybe you are, who knows.
Lillian is not wrong about this; over 16,000 ethnic Russians living on the Ukrainian border have been killed and photos released claiming Russia killed Ukranians. The propaganda making Russia look like a monster has been absolutely stunning. Dig deeper; this is more complicated and nuanced than you know.
тАЬNuancedтАЭ? And where did you get your тАЬnuancedтАЭ information? Because only Russian media fabricated this kind of news. ItтАЩs telling you donтАЩt bother to quote your sources for such lies.
What debate are you talking about? For at least the last eight months you have endlessly repeated the same ridiculous arguments about poor little Russia being pushed around by the nasty NATO, being completely oblivious to the fact that Putin himself has changed his tune, claiming that this is nothing less than about the тАЬRussian worldтАЭ - equivalent to the Nazi тАЬlebensraumтАЭ.
Somebody who plays the same looney tunes when the conversation has completely changed is not interested in debates, but in spreading propaganda, in your case straight from Russia.
What kind of person is able to keep pumping hardcore Russian propaganda in each post, seven months into a war in which Russia had already killed tens of thousand of innocent civilians, a war started single-handedly by a dictator who surprised even his supporters and henchmen, and who now gives the full Stalinist treatment no only to Ukrainians but also to his fellow Russians? How comes none of that registers with you? Maybe I was wrong after all, youтАЩre not a troll but an evil witch who dances at night on the graves of murdered children.
What kind of person has any knowledge of history can call what I've been saying "hardcore Russian propaganda"? Answer: either an ignorant fool or a "hardcore" propagandist for the American military industrial machine.
And Putin is nothing like Stalin. You seriously need to get an education.
You forget Kaliningrad which is wedged between Poland and Lithuania and is the base for RussiaтАЩs Baltic fleet.
It was conceivable if the West had acquiesced in PutinтАЩs aggression against Ukraine, that his next тАЬrequestтАЭ would have been a Russian corridor to connect Kaliningrad to the rest of Russia.
You are free to ignore PutinтАЩs clearly expressed revanchist views about Tsarist RussiaтАЩs lost territories. Those closer to the action do not have that same luxury.
Russia definitely wants a direct connection to Kaliningrad, and Poland, the Baltics and even Belarus are well aware of the fact. It was a "gift" to Russia for their role in WW II. Of course, without Allied aid, Russia probably would've collapsed, but who's counting?
And Russians remember every invasion that came through Ukraine because they were dumb enough not to control that landmass. They also know what is at stake. Also, the Ukraine is roughly a third ethnic Russian and the Ukrainian government, particularly under Zelensky and his predecessor, have been carrying out a near purge of them. This isn't simple. Both sides have every reason to keep going to the bitter end and even to drag Europe into it.
Russia is an empire of many peoples who are not Russians, most of whom are doing the fighting now for the "motherland". There was no danger of an invasion of Russia from anywhere, but Russia has routinely invaded its neighbors to the West. Ukraine is a third ethnic Russian - so what? Americans and Canadians are ethnically related as well, but we respect each other's sovereignty. Same with Mexico. Your argument sound like what Hitler used to justify the invasion of the Sudetenland.
You read Michael Tracy too? I should get off this comments thread and go read that one. I started, it looks enlightening, but I haven't found 44 minutes.
Putin is not Hitler. This is not the pre-World War II. This is a fight over Ukraine joining NATO so the US is right on Russia's border, simple as that. Our leaders caused this problem and now they're feeding the beast at our expense by waging a proxy war. And it does us no good to sink our economy and leave ourselves vulnerable trying to save one corrupt regime from another.
You must be related to Charles Lindberg and Father Coughlin.
Ah, yes, the old don't address the point, just call the other person a Nazi/anti-Semite/whatever-ist-ite-phobic routine.
Absolutely correct
So is Finland next for Vlad?
I think Finland today would make mincemeat of Russia in a conventional encounter.
I would say not as long as they remain neutral, but it depends on how much Europe crumbles this winter with a shortage of natural gas and our economy crumbles because it can't stand the strain of even a proxy war. If Putin thinks he could pull it off, and Finland has already made noises about joining NATO, or so the media says, who knows. That was always the risk of cajoling Zelensky into not settling with Russia. If Russia sees that it has a chance at more with little risk, why not? Same thing with China and Taiwan and the Middle East and Israel. If they decide the US wolf is just a chihuahua in throwing shadows on the wall, then really there's nothing in their way.
Again, things no one thought through.
I don't think Finland has much to worry about, given Russia's (non) performance militarily in Ukraine. It might be more the other way around.
All the more reason to make the Ukraine invasion as painful as possible for Russia; so that they don't come to see invading neighbours as a "low risk" venture.
Well, as you can tell, it's also very painful for us. The price of oil is killing our economy and Germany's economy is teetering, and where it goes, the rest of the world soon follows. We raised rates to drive down inflation, but we'll have to lower rates when the recession deepens into depression, which will once again feed inflation. Hunger pangs tend to trump the imperial ambitions of our leaders. And have you wondered what happens if Putin just decides f--k it all and hits the button? You people live in a fairy land. Again, you can't have both: Putin is so insane and so dastardly that we must involve him in a quagmire in Ukraine to "teach him a lesson" (as if the US is in any position to take the moral high ground in "lesson teaching") and Putin is not so insane and so dastardly to take the rest of the world with him by resorting to nuclear war. I wonder how your brains work. And I see you still haven't read the article, or this would be a much different conversation.
If Putin hits the button, he dies. The man is many things, but suicidal isn't one of them. He doesn't want to see Moscow turned into a smoking crater by nuclear war.
Europe is about to pay for handing their energy policy over to Greta Thunberg, but the US and Canada will be mostly insulated from that. There will be a small recession in North America but nothing severe enough to drop interest rates back down and restart inflation.
Russia is feeling more pain than the West, by far. 80,000 dead Russian soldiers and counting, and calling in the draft will hurt their economy massively. Have you seen how many Russians are fleeing the country?
Also, we didn't "involve" Putin in Ukraine. He chose to invade; we're just helping make it a quagmire instead of an easy win.
Again and again, Lillia Gajewski, you pretend to be deaf to what Putin says about Ukraine not being a real state and needed to be eliminated as such. You keep not only repeating Russian propaganda at nauseam, but you repeat only what suits your тАЬnarrativeтАЭ, the endless red herring about poor Russia having to attack to fend off the big bad NATO. After seven months of unprovoked agression, you have learned nothing.
In his eyes, it's not a real state. Ukraine as been a part of Russia for as long as Russia has existed. It did not "win" its independence from Russia. It was *granted* its independence from Russia. They *voted* to leave and Russia *let* them leave because they wanted Ukraine to act as a buffer between NATO aligned Europe and them. Think of Puerto Rico suddenly deciding, nope, we want independence and then aligning with Russia and Russia putting nukes there. That's the equivalent.
Ukraine was briefly independent after WWI, snd, in fact, negotiated a peace with Germany before Russia signed Brest-Litovsk. The Baltics and Finland were the first countries to recognize the USSR - and they were among the first to be invaded less than twenty years later. Russia coordinated with Germany in a division of Poland. After WWII, somemof the baltic nations fought insurgencies for nearly a decade. If they werent in NATO now, does anyone think they woild be indepedent still? How other countries behave isnt the spur here - Russia has constant atheistic territorial ambitions. Oh yeah - they tried to take Iran after WWII, and why were the British in Afghanistan long ago? To keep Russia out.
I agree thatтАЩs the backstory. Ukraine chose, Russia agreed, they become a buffer. Though like threesomes, such bargains rarely have happy endings?
Not really, but backstories have relevance.
So does this: https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia
Ukraine got its independence when the USSR collapsed, and ever since then Ukraine has been expecting Russia to eventually reinvade. As it turns out, they were right, so it makes sense they wanted NATO membership as an insurance policy.
Putin invaded Crimea before NATO membership was on the table, so you have the cause and effect backwards.
Putin isn't invading because Ukraine wants to join NATO; Ukraine wants to join NATO because of Putin.
Russia invaded Crimea e days after the start of the Maidan Revolution, a coup of an alerted president supported by the Obama administration. Lilia is right, our hands are not clean in this and we have used Ukraine's admission to NATO, and the EU, as a club.
Supported, yes. Instigated, no. That uprising was already underway; it was a grassroots revolution that the US helped along.
Ukraine sees NATO and the EU as a shield, not a club.
I am neither Russian nor a Putin sympathizer but I would bet Putin sees NATO as a club.
Putin also doesn't see Ukraine as a legitimate country; he sees it as the rightful property of the Kremlin.
Ukraine was an original member of the USSR a hundred years ago.
After the collapse of the USSR Ukraine declared itself neutral and had alliances with both Russia and European organizations. There is a significant portion of Ukraine that is ethnic Russian and speaks Russian; 17.8% as of 2022 so that percentage would have been higher if the Crimea were included. But Ukraine's history as Russian is much deeper than that dating to around 900 AD as part of the original Rus. So I suppose Putin is not wrong if he thinks of Ukraine as Russian.
Putin came to power in Russia late 1999. He served as President from then until 2008, was Prime Minister from 2008 until 2012, and President from.2012 until the present. If he does not see Ukraine as a legitimate country he waited a long time to do anything about it. Instead he invaded Crimea two days after a "revolution" aided by the US. He moved into Ukraine on the heels of talk about Ukraine joining NATO but also the EU. I have read that the EU connection would have been very damaging to the Russian economy which is not well-diversified.
So Russia had and has far greater interests in Ukraine than does the US nevertheless we have meddled therein since the Clinton administration. People have opined on here today about acting to ensure stable markets (a la colonislism), to engage in a proxy war to see how our weapons hold up (Military-Industrial Complex crack), and to thwart a global takeover by Putin (hysteria), among others. None of which are justified.
Lastly, all of my statements are my beliefs based on what I have read, in other words my opinion. As I am sure are yours.
Techically, the old capital of Russia was Kiev, so it would be more accurate to say Russia used to be part of Ukraine. I don't see Putin willing to step down and put Zelensky in charge of Russia though, so clearly Putin's love of history has its limits.
The reason there are so many Russian speakers in Ukraine is because the original inhabitants were killed in the Holodomor, aka the Ukrainian Genocide. Russians then moved into the newly vacant land.
When Putin took power, he started with Chechnya, then he invaded Georgia, and then Crimea. Ukraine has wanted to join NATO/EU for years because they knew all along an invasion was likely as long as Putin is in charge.
Technically, there was never a nation of Ukraine until very modern times. But this discussion is becoming tedious. You have your opinions. I have mine. We obviously disagree. I do appreciate the civility.
You have that completely back-ass-ward.
Try this: https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia
Crimea was invaded well before any discussions of Ukraine joining NATO were underway, so actually it's you who has it back-ass-wards.
I can tell you didn't read the article. The US has been using Ukraine as a pawn.
Ukraine is pretty wily as realpolitik goes; they're not easily used as pawns by anybody.
It's very frustrating that people don't see this.
Sorry, I thought you had commented on something else. Yes, it is very, very frustrating.
Putin's grievances are small potatoes compared to what happened to Germany in the Treaty of Versailles; if appeasement didn't work then it's sure as shit not going to work now.
Yes, Putin's grievances are small, his economy is small, his military is small . . . how exactly do you expect him to take over Europe? Which is literally the whole justification for our defense of a highly corrupt and autocratic nation. You guys have to pick one: either (a) Russia is this evil superpower headed by a crazed maniac with his hand on the button of nearly 7000 nukes so we need to tread very, very carefully or (b) Russia is a decayed power that Ukraine can easily beat with a few weapons that we've supplied them but Putin is sane enough not to take that personally. You all are living in a Hollywood script where not thinking through the plot doesn't matter because you control the ending. Well, we *don't* control the ending.
тАЬ Which is literally the whole justification for our defense of a highly corrupt and autocratic nationтАЭ
You should begin with a course or basic geography. And then basic history.
No one thinks Putin can overrun all of Europe with his conscript army.
Putin is bombing peaceful cities. Are they perfect cities ? No. Are they blameless and free of corruption ? No. But they are peaceful cities full of women and children. If NATO doesnтАЩt stand up against this, NATO has no purpose.
Putin doesn't want West Germany, only East Germany. His aspiration is to rebuild the Iron Curtain, which would mean roughly 1/2 of Europe gets conquered by the time he's done.
Russia is a decayed power headed by a wannabe conqueror; if he can roll over Ukraine as easily as he rolled over Georgia, then it's a matter of when, not if, he goes after Poland, Finland, and the Baltic states.
If, on the other hand, he gets quagmired in Ukraine, then eventually he'll have to do what the US did in Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan: declare victory and GTFO.
Please supply some evidence that any of that is true.
Chechnya and Georgia, for starters. Plus Hokkaido, and Belarus is now fully controlled by Russia.
Also, I have been to Hokkaido. Not a Russian to be seen. Now I can't take anything you say seriously because the territories that are disputed are islands north of Hokkaido and not on mainland Japan.
Japan considers those islands part of the Hokkaido Prefecture, so referring to the disputed territory as Hokkaido is an acceptable shorthand.
Think of it like saying Honolulu is in Hawaii, vs. saying it's in "the Hawaiian Islands", since it's technically on Oahu and not on the island of Hawaii. Sure, one term is technically more precise than the other, but that's some seriously pedantic hairsplitting
If you said "Because you said Honolulu is in Hawaii now I can't take anything you say seriously", I'd have a hard time taking anything YOU say seriously. Which, come to think of it, I do. Pedant.
Nice try, but your statement was not, "some islands North and part of the prefecture of Hokkaido", which are NOT the Island of Hokkaido. Russia has had them since after WWII, but Japan signed a treaty giving up all claim to those islands, so comparing them to Crimea is idiotic. Japan was offered two of them by Russia but refused. You compare apples to oranges, which misleads people who don't know exactly what's happened there In an attempt to smear Russia further. I must have hit a nerve if you are now resorting to ad hominem. Now I am absolutely certain you are a Troll.
You are not what I meant by sources. Can you share links to any legitimate publication besides MSM backing your claim?
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-new-ukraine-essay-reflects-imperial-ambitions/
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/features/analysis-putins-imperial-ambitions-and-ukraines-300-year-road-statehood
https://central.asia-news.com/en_GB/articles/cnmi_ca/features/2022/06/17/feature-02
Every one of those publications has an agenda and are controlled by MSM. I consider not one of them reliable sources. Something independent would be acceptable
LMAO this from the person on here quoting Kremlin propaganda verbatim. Let me guess, you think RT is "independent"
Repeating Russian propoganda??? San Francisco Peace Treaty, 1951. ROTFLMAO!!! Nice try, edgy millennial! I am just EDUCATED.
Well, according to you and this article, he's not "easily" rolling over them. So we have nothing to worry about, no?
And he's not the only one "quagmired" in Ukraine. You forgot that we are too. Isn't that funny how that happens? The US population gets poorer, the military industrial complex and the politicians it owns get richer, and all this goes on and on and on, and just when we got out of Afghanistan. Funny coincidence that.
If Ukraine had received no support, the rolling over would have gone much easier. Russia is only quagmired because of the support Ukraine has been receiving ever since Putin invaded Crimea.
The US is not quagmired in Ukraine; the US isn't losing thousands of soldiers trying to hold territory in another country. The military industrial complex is getting a nice payday, but it's chump change compared to how much a full-scale war in Eastern Europe would cost, if Putin's ambitions to remake the Iron Curtain were allowed to snowball the way Hitler's Third Reich ambitions did.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Baloney. How does that explain Putin's invasion of Chechnya? How about his invasion of Georgia? Thousands killed and tortured. 12 oligarchs have mysteriously committed suicide in the last year. People who disagree with the regime are jailed or worse.
As I said above, Ukraine isn't "sinking our economy". It has been widely reported that COVID entitlement fraud exceeded $46 billion. Think of all the other government handouts, medicaid payments for example. What do you think the aggregate annual amount of fraud is in our system here? Our problem isn't Ukraine, but our problems will grow if we don't keep Putin in his box.
I negligently failed to add Putin's assassination of enemies in western countries with Novichok, among other methods.
It's also cheaper to fight a contained proxy war than appease an expansionist and let things snowball.
The people bitching that the Ukraine war is too costly for the US are a classic example of pennywise/poundfoolish.
Yup, and the case study for US approved UAVтАЩs came included.
True. As some commentators have said here, it's kind of a bargain as wars go.
But NATO is already on RussiaтАЩs border, via the Baltic states and Poland.
Putin himself explained that, under his letтАЩs call it highly idiosyncratic history, Ukraine is not and never was a real country with any existence separate from Russia and its destiny was therefore to return to the fold. And he alone decided when and whether to invade Ukraine.
Talk about NATO etc. as justifications for invading a sovereign state is to fall for political spin and disinformation.
Funny thing is, Ukraine is the original "Rus," and could make the same claim that Rus unification necessitates that Ukraine conquer Russia in order to return its people to the natural order of things. Russia should be careful what it wishes for, it may get it in the form of Ukraine being the conqueror!
Putin's invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO policies, as you pointed out. It's about Putin's vision of him as Czar Vladimir of the United Rus, and alsso conquering a nation rich in resources that he can use, sell, and exploit.
Haver you looked at a map recently? Poland is *not* on Russia's border. And the Baltic states are ridiculously small as to be not a threat with a minuscule connecting border. Meanwhile, you can easily hit Moscow from Ukraine. In fact, Russia has been invaded most every time from that direction. You need to turn off the propagandists, like Common Sense, and go read some history and look at some maps. Russia is a well-armed has-been superpower who sees another internally decaying superpower that is well known for its "regime change as distraction wars" eying a very long stretch of land right along its border. The US itself has started wars and invaded countries over less.
And Ukraine has significant resources. And ports.
The US can hit Moscow from anywhere at any time. They don't need the Ukraine for that.
Yes, but it's much easier to mess around with Russia if you're right on their border. You can also mess around in Belarus and Georgia. It's also good for getting Russia to "attack" the US/NATO so you can justify marching troops in. Don't be naive. This is all about putting the US on Russia's doorstep, and we're willing to kill a lot of Ukrainians to do it.
No it isn't. This isn't the1940s. The US doesn't want to have anything to do with Russia. The only thing the US is interested in is Russia not firing off nukes. I will say it again. The US can "mess around" with Russia from wherever it wants to. It just doesn't want to. There is no strategic interest in doing so.
Then why did we sabotage the peace deal after meddling in Ukraine's politics? We *definitely* care about Russia, and even if you can't see it, they can.
https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia
Money? MIC? It definitely isn't because we need a border with Russia for any reason.
It doesn't matter. Russia doesn't want us on their border and given our machinations, who can blame them. We've turned Ukraine into a war zone over a country you seem to think we have no interest in.
Sure, there are so many forces today that want nothing more than to тАЬhit Moscow from UkraineтАЭ, obviously the bloodthirsty NATO being first. You should be on Russian TV, Lillia Gajewski. Or maybe you are, who knows.
Lillian is not wrong about this; over 16,000 ethnic Russians living on the Ukrainian border have been killed and photos released claiming Russia killed Ukranians. The propaganda making Russia look like a monster has been absolutely stunning. Dig deeper; this is more complicated and nuanced than you know.
тАЬNuancedтАЭ? And where did you get your тАЬnuancedтАЭ information? Because only Russian media fabricated this kind of news. ItтАЩs telling you donтАЩt bother to quote your sources for such lies.
Warhawk 101: Accuse a person making reasonable arguments of being a traitor. How well does that work in real debates I wonder?
I've been around a while. People like you are very tiresome.
What debate are you talking about? For at least the last eight months you have endlessly repeated the same ridiculous arguments about poor little Russia being pushed around by the nasty NATO, being completely oblivious to the fact that Putin himself has changed his tune, claiming that this is nothing less than about the тАЬRussian worldтАЭ - equivalent to the Nazi тАЬlebensraumтАЭ.
Somebody who plays the same looney tunes when the conversation has completely changed is not interested in debates, but in spreading propaganda, in your case straight from Russia.
I'm impressed that you've been following my comments for last eight months. I mean, even I have more of a life than that.
Trolls from the Russian troll farms or their American domestic equivalents are hard to miss.
Takes one to know one, I suppose.
What kind of person is able to keep pumping hardcore Russian propaganda in each post, seven months into a war in which Russia had already killed tens of thousand of innocent civilians, a war started single-handedly by a dictator who surprised even his supporters and henchmen, and who now gives the full Stalinist treatment no only to Ukrainians but also to his fellow Russians? How comes none of that registers with you? Maybe I was wrong after all, youтАЩre not a troll but an evil witch who dances at night on the graves of murdered children.
What kind of person has any knowledge of history can call what I've been saying "hardcore Russian propaganda"? Answer: either an ignorant fool or a "hardcore" propagandist for the American military industrial machine.
And Putin is nothing like Stalin. You seriously need to get an education.
You forget Kaliningrad which is wedged between Poland and Lithuania and is the base for RussiaтАЩs Baltic fleet.
It was conceivable if the West had acquiesced in PutinтАЩs aggression against Ukraine, that his next тАЬrequestтАЭ would have been a Russian corridor to connect Kaliningrad to the rest of Russia.
You are free to ignore PutinтАЩs clearly expressed revanchist views about Tsarist RussiaтАЩs lost territories. Those closer to the action do not have that same luxury.
Was going to comment on Kaliningrad bordering Poland - thanks for checking the map!
Latvia and EstoniaтАЩs population are also both about a quarter Russian, so sounds like a good reason to тАШliberateтАЩ them as well.
Russia definitely wants a direct connection to Kaliningrad, and Poland, the Baltics and even Belarus are well aware of the fact. It was a "gift" to Russia for their role in WW II. Of course, without Allied aid, Russia probably would've collapsed, but who's counting?
Ukranians remember the Holodomor. You may not know anything about that, but they do. They will fight because they know what's at stake.
And Russians remember every invasion that came through Ukraine because they were dumb enough not to control that landmass. They also know what is at stake. Also, the Ukraine is roughly a third ethnic Russian and the Ukrainian government, particularly under Zelensky and his predecessor, have been carrying out a near purge of them. This isn't simple. Both sides have every reason to keep going to the bitter end and even to drag Europe into it.
Russia is an empire of many peoples who are not Russians, most of whom are doing the fighting now for the "motherland". There was no danger of an invasion of Russia from anywhere, but Russia has routinely invaded its neighbors to the West. Ukraine is a third ethnic Russian - so what? Americans and Canadians are ethnically related as well, but we respect each other's sovereignty. Same with Mexico. Your argument sound like what Hitler used to justify the invasion of the Sudetenland.
In fact, despite all of the grand talk about Communist internationalism, Russia always regarded the other Warsaw Pact nations as colonies.
Completely correct - people who donтАЩt think that is true - should educate themselves on the topic
They said the same thing about Hitler, only re: the Kaiser. тАЬHeir Hitler is an honorable man.тАЭ Neville Chamberlain.
Yeah, we know, every critic of this war is Neville Chamberlain and the only two options are nuclear brinkmanship or obsequious appeasement. https://mtracey.substack.com/p/a-fairy-tale-version-of-world-war?utm_medium=reader2
You read Michael Tracy too? I should get off this comments thread and go read that one. I started, it looks enlightening, but I haven't found 44 minutes.
No one ever said Putin was honorable. I just said he's not Hitler and Russia is not post-World War I Germany.
How many more people does he need to kill to reach Hitler status? Or is there another metric we should know about?