I remember wearing a veil in grade school. When I noticed the women in my parish begin to wear veils at Mass again, I researched why they were starting to begin this practice again. What I read really hit home with me. I find I am distractable at Mass and the veil helps me to remember the sacredness of where I am, and to better concentrate. I find sometimes that it is the person who is most uncomfortable at your prayer practice that reads into it the "holier than thou". I am still just a bit shy about my veil as I enter/exit, but I put on a smile and "own it".
Commenting has been turned off on the Joshua Leifer article, so I’m commenting here. It seems he has written an article in the explaining his perspective on the incident. He seems to have realized, a little too late, that there are people who don’t want Israel to exist, and that he’s not helping matters. Worth a read.
This was lovely and respectful, and I was glad it also took into account people who disagree. I do veil in church (I'm Orthodox) or wear a simple beret. I do it not for others, but as an expression of my intimate relationship with Jesus—especially because as a very strong woman, it helps me to remember that I'm not the ultimately authority in my life, He is.
Interestingly, I also recall hearing (it might have been Michael Heiser who wrote it, but here's Jonathan Pageau's version, too) that St. Paul's words in Corinthians have to do with the ancient belief that a woman's hair is actually and literally a sexual organ, and therefore tempting not to *men* but to the same beings ("sons of God") who slept with the "daughters of men" and produced the "giants".
The ancient world had a far more developed cosmology than we realize, and certainly went beyond mere notions of modesty or the lesser dignity of women. We ignore these things in our modern hubris. The ancients were not stupid. *We* are the ones who have cast off everything it took thousands of years to conceptualize and actualize.
I am lucky enough to live in a city that has the Traditional Latin Mass on Sunday (St. Agnes). There are almost no women NOT wearing veils. My book on the TLM indicates (so I recall) white veils are for female children, black veils for older women. However, my local church has no one wearing it, myself included. The TLM is wonderful and I cannot understand the those who would forbid it. We are all worshiping the same God, the same liturgy.
Protestations aside, the passage in Corinthians that tells women to cover their heads when in prayer explicitly says women are subserviant to men. To reject one tenet but embrace the other is just trendy Cafeteria Catholicism. Which is fine, but please be honest about it.
This is a really modern, anachronistic take. Read my comment above re: Paul's/ancient world's cosmology. It's not about mere modesty or subservience; it reflects a cohesive understanding of the intersection of the physical/spiritual worlds.
Given the context of other biblical writings (1 Timothy 2, Titus 2, 1 Peter 3), I can't help but think the "cosmology" you mention includes the belief that women are inferior to men.
catholics aren't honest about their church (essentially the gov't of their church) - -- and while a lot of catholics are that more for the family tradition aspect, supporting an organization with such a bad history just seems shallow. Of course the danger of organized religion has been proven, (it's not about the faith - it always becomes about seeking power) - how long to get from this to the Taliban?
Love this beautiful story of reclaiming a positive "lost piece" of one's faith culture & practices.
Many faiths use ceremonial clothing or sacred clothing as a part of rememberance- and they also understand there are holy spaces, which should spur us to want to be different when we are in them...and even the same kind of different when we aren't.
I attend Mass where many of the women veil. From a practical standpoint veils keep everyone more focused on worship, mostly because the men can’t check out the women. In my church the married women wear black veils and unmarried women wear white veils.
Appreciate the FP running this piece. I used to veil in college because that was the norm, but stopped after graduating since it is an optional practice and I worry that for me, it might be a point of pride. It is nice to see veiling again and perhaps it is something I will consider again. The one thing I noticed is that it did help me focus on the liturgy more, giving me the seclusion for more intimate worship.
Are all these traditionalists also forsaking birth control, pre-marital sex, masturbation, and other sins of the flesh forbidden by the church? - from an ex-Catholic anti-theist
Traditionalists likely ARE forsaking all those things. We have no hesitation in recognizing our faults and failings. The church is not full of perfect people; however we also (of course) sin. Sick people need a doctor and going to mass and praying to God is our medicine for the sin that ails us. Im sorry to see you are an anti-theist. God loves you and knows any pain you have suffered. He suffered with you. He is not against you. You may not believe in him but He believes in you. Anyone who may have hurt you and called themself a Christian was clearly not living up to the values that Christ and his church teach. Someone can call themself a vegitarian but if you see them eating a steak the title loses all credibility. Don't let the utter failure of us imperfect humans cut you off from life giving love. When humans let me down I turn to the word of God, the Bible, and let him speak directly to me.
We are all sinners. Once you commit a sin we Catholics with a heavy heart seeks absolution by Confession. The truth will set you free ! Don’t take your eye off the ball, all of us will answer to God.
Sorry to see you left NRO, Ms. Kearns. I enjoyed listening to you on The Editor's podcast.
As a practicing Catholic (unveiled) I appreciate this piece. Now if only Catholic women, especially those during the Sacrament of Marriage, would just cover their shoulders and chests! I really appreciated and loved Olivia Culpo's wedding dress In her wedding to Christian McCaffrey. So beautiful, so elegant and so respectful of Our Lord.
Weird to see so many folks (in the comments and the article itself) equating spirituality with religion. There's nothing "spiritual" about religion....
This is a very typical hippie/protestant understanding. There's *everything* spiritual about putting your faith into physical, tangible, embodied practice, which is the meaning of religion.
No ... it's not. If you born in Iran, you'd be telling me how "spiritual" the Islamic religion is. If you were born in India, Hinduism is what you'd gleefully espouse. If you were born in the Pre-Olympian Bronze Age, Poseidon would have probably given you a great life's insight.
But, you were born in the modern West, and inherited your Westerly-dominated faith, so it's the "Christian spiritualism" sort that really tickles your fancy. There's definitely someone with "hippie" aspirations in this equation, but I can assure you, it's not me.
That doesn't fix your problem: demons are spiritual too.
Some try to define "religion" a something negative: that's not what it means. It describes having a relationship with God in a specific way: e.g., the Christian way rather than the Islamic way or the Buddhist way.
In Judaism both men and women cover their heads for different reasons. It is only an extreme minority that shaves their heads and many women inside modern orthodox Judaism chose to cover their heads at synagogue. Wigs are not a requirement. I myself prefer a good snood or headwrap. So many options!
Steven, I never said anything about setting rules and made clear I respected the women who wear veils. I wore one for 16 years pre-Vatican II. Did you not read my first comment? Calm down and respect all women's choices and don't make assumptions about who has greater piety and chastity.
I remember wearing a veil in grade school. When I noticed the women in my parish begin to wear veils at Mass again, I researched why they were starting to begin this practice again. What I read really hit home with me. I find I am distractable at Mass and the veil helps me to remember the sacredness of where I am, and to better concentrate. I find sometimes that it is the person who is most uncomfortable at your prayer practice that reads into it the "holier than thou". I am still just a bit shy about my veil as I enter/exit, but I put on a smile and "own it".
Commenting has been turned off on the Joshua Leifer article, so I’m commenting here. It seems he has written an article in the explaining his perspective on the incident. He seems to have realized, a little too late, that there are people who don’t want Israel to exist, and that he’s not helping matters. Worth a read.
This was lovely and respectful, and I was glad it also took into account people who disagree. I do veil in church (I'm Orthodox) or wear a simple beret. I do it not for others, but as an expression of my intimate relationship with Jesus—especially because as a very strong woman, it helps me to remember that I'm not the ultimately authority in my life, He is.
Interestingly, I also recall hearing (it might have been Michael Heiser who wrote it, but here's Jonathan Pageau's version, too) that St. Paul's words in Corinthians have to do with the ancient belief that a woman's hair is actually and literally a sexual organ, and therefore tempting not to *men* but to the same beings ("sons of God") who slept with the "daughters of men" and produced the "giants".
The ancient world had a far more developed cosmology than we realize, and certainly went beyond mere notions of modesty or the lesser dignity of women. We ignore these things in our modern hubris. The ancients were not stupid. *We* are the ones who have cast off everything it took thousands of years to conceptualize and actualize.
It’s definitely the second thing, for Orthodox Jews, for example, a woman’s hair is only for her husband. Paul may have gotten it from that.
I am lucky enough to live in a city that has the Traditional Latin Mass on Sunday (St. Agnes). There are almost no women NOT wearing veils. My book on the TLM indicates (so I recall) white veils are for female children, black veils for older women. However, my local church has no one wearing it, myself included. The TLM is wonderful and I cannot understand the those who would forbid it. We are all worshiping the same God, the same liturgy.
Protestations aside, the passage in Corinthians that tells women to cover their heads when in prayer explicitly says women are subserviant to men. To reject one tenet but embrace the other is just trendy Cafeteria Catholicism. Which is fine, but please be honest about it.
This is a really modern, anachronistic take. Read my comment above re: Paul's/ancient world's cosmology. It's not about mere modesty or subservience; it reflects a cohesive understanding of the intersection of the physical/spiritual worlds.
Given the context of other biblical writings (1 Timothy 2, Titus 2, 1 Peter 3), I can't help but think the "cosmology" you mention includes the belief that women are inferior to men.
Perhaps during the time of Corinth, women did not have the full legal rights as men did :).
catholics aren't honest about their church (essentially the gov't of their church) - -- and while a lot of catholics are that more for the family tradition aspect, supporting an organization with such a bad history just seems shallow. Of course the danger of organized religion has been proven, (it's not about the faith - it always becomes about seeking power) - how long to get from this to the Taliban?
Love this beautiful story of reclaiming a positive "lost piece" of one's faith culture & practices.
Many faiths use ceremonial clothing or sacred clothing as a part of rememberance- and they also understand there are holy spaces, which should spur us to want to be different when we are in them...and even the same kind of different when we aren't.
I attend Mass where many of the women veil. From a practical standpoint veils keep everyone more focused on worship, mostly because the men can’t check out the women. In my church the married women wear black veils and unmarried women wear white veils.
Appreciate the FP running this piece. I used to veil in college because that was the norm, but stopped after graduating since it is an optional practice and I worry that for me, it might be a point of pride. It is nice to see veiling again and perhaps it is something I will consider again. The one thing I noticed is that it did help me focus on the liturgy more, giving me the seclusion for more intimate worship.
Are all these traditionalists also forsaking birth control, pre-marital sex, masturbation, and other sins of the flesh forbidden by the church? - from an ex-Catholic anti-theist
Traditionalists likely ARE forsaking all those things. We have no hesitation in recognizing our faults and failings. The church is not full of perfect people; however we also (of course) sin. Sick people need a doctor and going to mass and praying to God is our medicine for the sin that ails us. Im sorry to see you are an anti-theist. God loves you and knows any pain you have suffered. He suffered with you. He is not against you. You may not believe in him but He believes in you. Anyone who may have hurt you and called themself a Christian was clearly not living up to the values that Christ and his church teach. Someone can call themself a vegitarian but if you see them eating a steak the title loses all credibility. Don't let the utter failure of us imperfect humans cut you off from life giving love. When humans let me down I turn to the word of God, the Bible, and let him speak directly to me.
We are all sinners. Once you commit a sin we Catholics with a heavy heart seeks absolution by Confession. The truth will set you free ! Don’t take your eye off the ball, all of us will answer to God.
Sorry to see you left NRO, Ms. Kearns. I enjoyed listening to you on The Editor's podcast.
As a practicing Catholic (unveiled) I appreciate this piece. Now if only Catholic women, especially those during the Sacrament of Marriage, would just cover their shoulders and chests! I really appreciated and loved Olivia Culpo's wedding dress In her wedding to Christian McCaffrey. So beautiful, so elegant and so respectful of Our Lord.
Let’s cover up MORE women! Definitely seems to be where we are going as a society.
just finished Conclave by Robert Harris. fiction but intetesting
Weird to see so many folks (in the comments and the article itself) equating spirituality with religion. There's nothing "spiritual" about religion....
This is a very typical hippie/protestant understanding. There's *everything* spiritual about putting your faith into physical, tangible, embodied practice, which is the meaning of religion.
No ... it's not. If you born in Iran, you'd be telling me how "spiritual" the Islamic religion is. If you were born in India, Hinduism is what you'd gleefully espouse. If you were born in the Pre-Olympian Bronze Age, Poseidon would have probably given you a great life's insight.
But, you were born in the modern West, and inherited your Westerly-dominated faith, so it's the "Christian spiritualism" sort that really tickles your fancy. There's definitely someone with "hippie" aspirations in this equation, but I can assure you, it's not me.
That doesn't fix your problem: demons are spiritual too.
Some try to define "religion" a something negative: that's not what it means. It describes having a relationship with God in a specific way: e.g., the Christian way rather than the Islamic way or the Buddhist way.
I’ve always been interested in the difference with Judaism, wherein it’s the men who cover their heads.
In Judaism both men and women cover their heads for different reasons. It is only an extreme minority that shaves their heads and many women inside modern orthodox Judaism chose to cover their heads at synagogue. Wigs are not a requirement. I myself prefer a good snood or headwrap. So many options!
but the women shave their heads and wear wigs
Not all, not even most! 🤦♀️
Women who cover their hair or wear wigs mostly do it over their own hair, not a shaved head.
but their hair is cut before they marry... crazy stuff wearing a wig over your own hair..what is the purpose of that
Steven, I never said anything about setting rules and made clear I respected the women who wear veils. I wore one for 16 years pre-Vatican II. Did you not read my first comment? Calm down and respect all women's choices and don't make assumptions about who has greater piety and chastity.
Well, whaddya know! Next, people will begin dressing for church in their "Sunday best"?
Wait, you mean pajamas in church aren't cool anymore?