I vote for Stephen/Kirchick having won the debate, though Taibbi/Fang made some excellent points. My overriding lens in listening to such debates is the weight of Realpolitk throughout history. Good guys never prevail. Jimmy Carter has been the most honest, honorable, and humane president we have ever had, but he was a complete failure as president. You cannot bring the Queensbury Rules to a street fight. Evil looks for the goodness as other so it can have lunch. Putin, Xi, and Kim do not play by any rules. Policing the world is for the purpose of advancing humanity. If we do not prevail, the convulsions around the world will be extreme. That said, we should also tax those who benefit from our protection. No one should ride free.
I listen to the whole debate. Tabbi and his partner won. Stephens et al ignore the failures of US Foreign policy and they also play revisionist history. Things like HoChiMinh only went to the communists for support because the US didn't stand up to the French after WW II and told them that colonialism is dead and that the Vietnam people shall be allowed to govern themselves. We funded the majority of the French involvement after WW II in Vietnam (Lets see if anyone sees a pattern here). After the French ran we should have never sent another dime or advisor etc to that non strategic corner of the world The whole Domino Theory was and is a made up theory that has zero basis in reality Ukraine, No mention of our overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014 (spent 4-5 billion doing it) and then after the eastern provinces of Ukraine voted to align with Russia because they are all ethically Russian Speak Russian etc We allow the central government of Ukraine to wage war on them. Tabbi did bring up the promise made to Russia that we had promised not to expand NATO one foot eastward towards Russia as part of the deal to reunite Germany. But Stephens or the other guy basically said we won the cold war and as winners we can do what ever we want including breaking any promise we made Russia. We did the same thing to ever American Indian tribe too in every treaty (these were in writing ) made. So I guess in the end might makes right.
On the question of Iran Stephens has claimed we can and should bomb Iran and its infrastructure, and that magically Iran will play nice afterwards. What if they don't? Unless we are prepared to commit to a total and complete invasion where we intend to make Iran the 51st state we should never attack them first. We need to make it perfectly clear that if they continue to behave the way they are and if they attack us or our allies we will turn Iran into a wasteland starting with Tehran.
Not one brought up the question of S. Korea Japan Germany all of them are rich countries that can afford to defend themselves now. We need to let them know that the United States will no longer garrison troops there for their defense and that we will be bringing them home on a timeline that would allow them to ramp up their own abilities to defend themselves WW II has been over for 80 years and the Soviet Union has been gone almost for 35 years Why not treat Russia as part of the west if they wish to be vs the evil empire. The last thing geopolitically we would want is Russia and China to be working together and yet Biden and the Neo Cons have accomplished exactly that.
We are not on the precipice of World War III. The West is on the precipice of surrendering to China and Russia under the influence of the green religion.
Policing the world after WW2 resulted in American global hegemony, and made the 20th “The American Century”. The notion that if we retreated from our global obligations to ensure the international system works in our favor, we would get more prosperity at home is not only naive, but frankly, dangerous. America’s absence will be quickly filled by other powers, and the ones most likely to do that are not our friends.
Those whom never served are always the ones who push war
I vote for Stephen/Kirchick having won the debate, though Taibbi/Fang made some excellent points. My overriding lens in listening to such debates is the weight of Realpolitk throughout history. Good guys never prevail. Jimmy Carter has been the most honest, honorable, and humane president we have ever had, but he was a complete failure as president. You cannot bring the Queensbury Rules to a street fight. Evil looks for the goodness as other so it can have lunch. Putin, Xi, and Kim do not play by any rules. Policing the world is for the purpose of advancing humanity. If we do not prevail, the convulsions around the world will be extreme. That said, we should also tax those who benefit from our protection. No one should ride free.
Who won the debate? It was 81-19 before the debate. What was the outcome?
I listen to the whole debate. Tabbi and his partner won. Stephens et al ignore the failures of US Foreign policy and they also play revisionist history. Things like HoChiMinh only went to the communists for support because the US didn't stand up to the French after WW II and told them that colonialism is dead and that the Vietnam people shall be allowed to govern themselves. We funded the majority of the French involvement after WW II in Vietnam (Lets see if anyone sees a pattern here). After the French ran we should have never sent another dime or advisor etc to that non strategic corner of the world The whole Domino Theory was and is a made up theory that has zero basis in reality Ukraine, No mention of our overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014 (spent 4-5 billion doing it) and then after the eastern provinces of Ukraine voted to align with Russia because they are all ethically Russian Speak Russian etc We allow the central government of Ukraine to wage war on them. Tabbi did bring up the promise made to Russia that we had promised not to expand NATO one foot eastward towards Russia as part of the deal to reunite Germany. But Stephens or the other guy basically said we won the cold war and as winners we can do what ever we want including breaking any promise we made Russia. We did the same thing to ever American Indian tribe too in every treaty (these were in writing ) made. So I guess in the end might makes right.
On the question of Iran Stephens has claimed we can and should bomb Iran and its infrastructure, and that magically Iran will play nice afterwards. What if they don't? Unless we are prepared to commit to a total and complete invasion where we intend to make Iran the 51st state we should never attack them first. We need to make it perfectly clear that if they continue to behave the way they are and if they attack us or our allies we will turn Iran into a wasteland starting with Tehran.
Not one brought up the question of S. Korea Japan Germany all of them are rich countries that can afford to defend themselves now. We need to let them know that the United States will no longer garrison troops there for their defense and that we will be bringing them home on a timeline that would allow them to ramp up their own abilities to defend themselves WW II has been over for 80 years and the Soviet Union has been gone almost for 35 years Why not treat Russia as part of the west if they wish to be vs the evil empire. The last thing geopolitically we would want is Russia and China to be working together and yet Biden and the Neo Cons have accomplished exactly that.
We are not on the precipice of World War III. The West is on the precipice of surrendering to China and Russia under the influence of the green religion.
Policing the world after WW2 resulted in American global hegemony, and made the 20th “The American Century”. The notion that if we retreated from our global obligations to ensure the international system works in our favor, we would get more prosperity at home is not only naive, but frankly, dangerous. America’s absence will be quickly filled by other powers, and the ones most likely to do that are not our friends.