After seven years of fighting, Joe Kennedy—who was benched for praying on the 50-yard line after high school football games—speaks to TFP on the eve of his comeback.
I am appalled. He’s just an agitator. He resigned and has been living in Florida. The SCOTUS should have denied the case ina standing from the beginning. This is all demagoguery. If a pagan or Muslim was praying on the 50yard line and student athletes felt compelled by the coach to join in parents would have grabbed pitchforks.
I’d love to hear your response to the Slate article stating that the case was a set-up and that the Supreme Court fell for it. There are wildly conflicting takes on the praying and the coach’s commitment to returning to his job.
My heart and prayers go out to Coach Kennedy. We have also been church homeless due to military life, Covid, moving several times the past 5 years. The man and his family sacrificed FOR HIS COUNTRY as a Marine for 20 years- no easy task. Only to be told he didn’t have the rights HE defended. The TRUE church leaders became obvious with Covid- as did the cowards.
I pray he and his wife find a church home in Pensacola and he is able to find peace and health.
On a comparative note- Americans DO NOT understand the CONSTITUTION!! We are currently living in France- it sounds glamorous until you understand the hypocrisy and limited rights bestowed on its citizens. They just passed a LAW here that NO child can wear ANY type of anything that expresses their faith in schools! And it is mandatory children start school at 3 years old- with no option for homeschool education.
I’d rather have the freedom and choice in the US than be TOLD how to live as they are in Europe.
Our system of government- from local to the freedom of 50 states, to the separation of powers is the brilliant construction of what makes us FREE.
A letter my 15-year-old son sent to the New York Times appeared in yesterday’s paper. (Apparently, he often sends letters reflecting on various opinion pieces - I had no idea). It was in praise of Kristof’s August 23rd Times piece “American’s are losing their religious faith”. My son's response was printed along with letters from two college professors. I wanted to share what my son wrote to build on the positive momentum of freedom, of all kinds, and the hopeful depoliticization of religion I see this Bremerton ruling marking. In the words of a 10th grader, and quoting from the New York Times 9.5.23, "Nicholas Kristof’s excellent column touches on an increasingly prominent dangerous trend in American politics: the politicization of Christianity. When the United States was founded, references to Judeo-Christian values and quotations from the Bible littered the speeches of nearly every United States politician. Thomas Jefferson edited his own version of the Bible. But some prominent Christians’ responses to crises such as the AIDS epidemic and Sept. 11, as Mr. Kristof pointed out, have left people disenchanted with the church. This association between the extreme religious right and all of Christianity is what presents the real threat to America’s spirituality. Religion must become bipartisan again to return truly to its former acceptance in the hearts of the American people. The hypocrisy of some politicians who feign faith to score political points may be etched into the minds of many young Americans. Taking off the partisan blinders and making religion about religion again can help erase that image.”
This is one the most awesomely retarded and embarrassing things I've ever read:
"But the school hasn’t offered Kennedy a complete reset. While in the past, players on both sides voluntarily worshipped alongside the coach on the field, this year, the Bremerton School District has put in place a new policy mandating that all students must stay 25 feet away when he kneels to pray. No spectators will be allowed on the field either."
Insanely stupid, arbitrary and utterly meaningless. It’s 100% just some random “rule” they came up with so their defeat wasn’t so crushing and total. Imagine telling kids that wanted to pray with him, no, you gotta stay away from that coach. Why not mandate that he has to pray in Urdu or Basque so no kids will hear the words themselves?
We are the most ridiculous and pathetic culture on earth. No sane person wouldn’t fire every administrator and send them all to Afghanistan to roam the mountains like goats forever.
Reminders of Madalyn Murray O’Hair. As a proud atheist activist & socialist, offended by mandatory prayer + Bible readings in schools, she was successful in her 1963 lawsuit (Murray v. Curley) for separation of Church and State.
Ironically, her lawsuit was filed on behalf of her son William (freshman in a new Jr. High School). When Madalyn took him to be enrolled, SHE was not happy with the Pledge of Allegiance being followed with a prayer.
William, who became a conservative activist, said his mother was angry from being twice denied to defect to the Soviet Union. She told him, “Well, if they’ll keep us from going to Russia where there is some freedom, we’ll just have to change America.”
Except on properties where somebody who object to Your prayers sets the rules. Just like a referent can ban playing football and other activities from his church. Another referent might actually decide to allow kids throwing balls as part of a children's prayer group in his church. In the end it's all up to him and neither my business or Yours. And now transfer this to the football stadium.
He says he’s made it safe for people of any religion to pray in public. Mmhmmm. Wonder what the good people of Bremerton would have done if the coach rolled out his prayer rug on the 50 yard line and started chanting “Allahu Akbar.” Lol, right? We all know that when Christians cry for “religious freedom” they mean freedom, i.e. special privileges, for Christians (and, to some extent Jews since they do share the Old Testament plus needing the state of Israel to bring about the Rapture - during which, incidentally, Jewish Jesus will cast all Jews into Hell. Good stuff!)
I support freedom of Religion but the rub in school sports revolves around his statement: “If anyone felt pressured, no one ever said that.” No Kid is ever gpoing to tell his coach "NO." Players do feel pressured; especially in a inb a team sport like football. Young kids will do anything they can do to be not left out. They don't want to incur the cold shoulder from other players, "You're not joining us?" What if a kid is Muslim and doesn't feel comfortable? Does the Coach mind if he unrolls his prayer blanket and takes half the team with him? This has become a fashionable attempt to mimic high performance College teams. Candians are adopting the same habits. In Canada, the whole team's doing it, but I'm sure only a fractionof the kids actually go to church. (reminds me of AA where peoiple are essentially facing the same issue with the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting - If you don't do it, there's raised eyebrows. Here's a thought, pray by yourself before the game.
Religion belongs in the home & houses of worship. It doesn’t belong in public schools. The problem arises when one religion is the dominant religion to the detriment of others. It’s a nidus for discrimination. I know for I’ve been there.
The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
In my opinion, the only sensible interpretation of the First Amendment, as regards religion, is to prohibit the government from passing laws that impose special restrictions on, or grant special privileges to, activity that is "religious" in nature as opposed to activity that isn't. This is to prevent government from having to define what exactly religion is, which religious organizations are "legitimate", and so on, which I think is precisely what the the authors of the First Amendment wanted to avoid. I realize that there is a body of legislation and case law that may disagree with me to some extent, and since I'm neither a Supreme Court justice, a judge, a constitutional scholar, nor even an attorney, I am not qualified to rule legally on these issues. But unlike some complicated and specialized laws, the Constitution is supposed to be accessible to and understandable by ordinary citizens like me.
I believe that religious freedom (and various other freedoms) are inextricably bound up with property rights, as construed broadly to include one's own time and labor. For example, you can express religious or other opinions in the privacy of your own home, but not in your neighbors' unless they grant you permission to do so. Public spaces, like sidewalks, streets, and parks, are shared among all citizens, and the government is stuck with the task of deciding who gets access to those limited resources. But government shouldn't engage in "viewpoint discrimination", e.g. granting some religious group access to a park, while denying a different one, based on the ideas those groups express.
So, I'll try to apply these principles to Coach Kennedy and his 50-yard prayers:
The football fields in question are not his private property. Also, accepting a coaching job involved selling away some of his time and labor to an employer who had a right to impose restrictions on his activities. For example, if he were hired to teach a math class, the school, public or private, would not be obligated to let him use class time and classroom space to preach a religious doctrine. Libertarians tend to claim (rightly, I think) that conflicts over public school policies involving curricula, religious expression, cultural values, etc., arise precisely because the schools are public. They think the solution is either school choice, to make it easier for parents and students to escape schools that conflict with their standards and needs, or, in the extreme, to do away with public schools altogether.
But Coach Kennedy's case is about public schools and sports events, so we're stuck in a murky area of policy, about which I'm unsure. But I'm sympathetic to the skeptical views of Lee Morris (see his numerous comments on this article).
Can a school teacher sit by themselves at lunch, cross themselves after a private prayer, get noticed by others, have those others voluntarily join said teacher at routine lunch, and then participate voluntarily at the now group lunch?
My understanding is that this above scenario is an equivalent to what happened on the field after the games.
A teacher quietly crossing themselves before a meal is not at all equivalent to a coach getting down on his knees under the lights on the 50 yard line and praying in front of stands full of spectators not to mention a team of minors over whose sports career he has total power. I support the teacher’s right to say a private grace. I do not support the coach’s extravagant display, however sincere.
Would you feel the same way if it were a Muslim coach? Or a Wiccan? It just seems that Christians feel very strongly about “religious liberty” when it privileges Christians. What is so terrifying about respecting the separation of church and state? About refraining from conducting mass religious rituals on taxpayer-funded public-school property? I’m not anti-religion by any means, but I think it’s weirdly arrogant - prideful even - to assume your faith is so wonderful and special it has to be displayed for all to see whether they like it or not. And please tell me when Jesus started caring about football.
If you read my other comments you’ll understand me better. I have respect for people who follow their faith in a power greater than themselves. It’s called humility. Where did the mass religious ritual take place? Are you uncomfortable with any display of faith? In addition, if you understood religious people a bit more, you’d know prayer is not rooted in pride (your distain is showing; thou protests too much.) Oh, and Jesus started caring about football exactly at the moment Mr Kennedy prayed in gratitude.
I‘m very close with my Catholic in-laws. I go to mass with them when we visit. I kneel when we should kneel, I pray when we pray. I got married in a Catholic service and baptized our four children for their sakes. I don’t disdain religion.
I do take exception to people of faith judging me for my lack of faith. Several of these family members, though we adore each other and have a blast together (two of whom are my kids’ godparents) openly believe I’m going to Hell. Ditto their gay acquaintances. I find this very confusing and certainly not a religion I’d want to be part of. My f-I-l is adamant that, no matter how a person conducts themselves, no matter how many good works, etc, they are not *truly* good unless they accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. Thus, friends and other family members who’ve cheated on each other, committed crimes, etc. will ALWAYS be better than me though I work in charity and have been faithful to my husband. He regularly supplies me with articles - usual from First Things - that argue this (sometimes subtly sometimes not).
So, I totally respect their faith - truly! But I have real problems with how their faith sees me.
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Proverbs 15:8 ESV
“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”
Matthew 6:5 ESV
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.”
Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.“
I think the answer depends on the context. If the school were truly private, then it could make whatever rules it liked for its teachers and lunchroom; teachers who didn't like those rules could find a different job. If the school were public, then it could depend on whether the lunchroom served only teachers, hence adults, in which case I would say the answer is probably yes. But if the lunchroom also served children, and the teacher sat down with some children and tried to persuade them to engage in prayer or some other religious activity, then I'm not so sure.
I see another lawsuit coming. You can't demand that kids and other adults stay away from the praying man without infringing on their freedom. If they want to participate it's their choice not the school's.
That little provision is so lame. The man started by himself. Others joined voluntarily. The school is spooked bc educators(!) don’t understand the concept of separation of church and state.
I am appalled. He’s just an agitator. He resigned and has been living in Florida. The SCOTUS should have denied the case ina standing from the beginning. This is all demagoguery. If a pagan or Muslim was praying on the 50yard line and student athletes felt compelled by the coach to join in parents would have grabbed pitchforks.
I’d love to hear your response to the Slate article stating that the case was a set-up and that the Supreme Court fell for it. There are wildly conflicting takes on the praying and the coach’s commitment to returning to his job.
My heart and prayers go out to Coach Kennedy. We have also been church homeless due to military life, Covid, moving several times the past 5 years. The man and his family sacrificed FOR HIS COUNTRY as a Marine for 20 years- no easy task. Only to be told he didn’t have the rights HE defended. The TRUE church leaders became obvious with Covid- as did the cowards.
I pray he and his wife find a church home in Pensacola and he is able to find peace and health.
On a comparative note- Americans DO NOT understand the CONSTITUTION!! We are currently living in France- it sounds glamorous until you understand the hypocrisy and limited rights bestowed on its citizens. They just passed a LAW here that NO child can wear ANY type of anything that expresses their faith in schools! And it is mandatory children start school at 3 years old- with no option for homeschool education.
I’d rather have the freedom and choice in the US than be TOLD how to live as they are in Europe.
Our system of government- from local to the freedom of 50 states, to the separation of powers is the brilliant construction of what makes us FREE.
A letter my 15-year-old son sent to the New York Times appeared in yesterday’s paper. (Apparently, he often sends letters reflecting on various opinion pieces - I had no idea). It was in praise of Kristof’s August 23rd Times piece “American’s are losing their religious faith”. My son's response was printed along with letters from two college professors. I wanted to share what my son wrote to build on the positive momentum of freedom, of all kinds, and the hopeful depoliticization of religion I see this Bremerton ruling marking. In the words of a 10th grader, and quoting from the New York Times 9.5.23, "Nicholas Kristof’s excellent column touches on an increasingly prominent dangerous trend in American politics: the politicization of Christianity. When the United States was founded, references to Judeo-Christian values and quotations from the Bible littered the speeches of nearly every United States politician. Thomas Jefferson edited his own version of the Bible. But some prominent Christians’ responses to crises such as the AIDS epidemic and Sept. 11, as Mr. Kristof pointed out, have left people disenchanted with the church. This association between the extreme religious right and all of Christianity is what presents the real threat to America’s spirituality. Religion must become bipartisan again to return truly to its former acceptance in the hearts of the American people. The hypocrisy of some politicians who feign faith to score political points may be etched into the minds of many young Americans. Taking off the partisan blinders and making religion about religion again can help erase that image.”
This is one the most awesomely retarded and embarrassing things I've ever read:
"But the school hasn’t offered Kennedy a complete reset. While in the past, players on both sides voluntarily worshipped alongside the coach on the field, this year, the Bremerton School District has put in place a new policy mandating that all students must stay 25 feet away when he kneels to pray. No spectators will be allowed on the field either."
Insanely stupid, arbitrary and utterly meaningless. It’s 100% just some random “rule” they came up with so their defeat wasn’t so crushing and total. Imagine telling kids that wanted to pray with him, no, you gotta stay away from that coach. Why not mandate that he has to pray in Urdu or Basque so no kids will hear the words themselves?
We are the most ridiculous and pathetic culture on earth. No sane person wouldn’t fire every administrator and send them all to Afghanistan to roam the mountains like goats forever.
Reminders of Madalyn Murray O’Hair. As a proud atheist activist & socialist, offended by mandatory prayer + Bible readings in schools, she was successful in her 1963 lawsuit (Murray v. Curley) for separation of Church and State.
Ironically, her lawsuit was filed on behalf of her son William (freshman in a new Jr. High School). When Madalyn took him to be enrolled, SHE was not happy with the Pledge of Allegiance being followed with a prayer.
William, who became a conservative activist, said his mother was angry from being twice denied to defect to the Soviet Union. She told him, “Well, if they’ll keep us from going to Russia where there is some freedom, we’ll just have to change America.”
Good to see Julia Duin. Good writer on a good subject.
Except on properties where somebody who object to Your prayers sets the rules. Just like a referent can ban playing football and other activities from his church. Another referent might actually decide to allow kids throwing balls as part of a children's prayer group in his church. In the end it's all up to him and neither my business or Yours. And now transfer this to the football stadium.
He says he’s made it safe for people of any religion to pray in public. Mmhmmm. Wonder what the good people of Bremerton would have done if the coach rolled out his prayer rug on the 50 yard line and started chanting “Allahu Akbar.” Lol, right? We all know that when Christians cry for “religious freedom” they mean freedom, i.e. special privileges, for Christians (and, to some extent Jews since they do share the Old Testament plus needing the state of Israel to bring about the Rapture - during which, incidentally, Jewish Jesus will cast all Jews into Hell. Good stuff!)
Um, no. Not at all.
I support freedom of Religion but the rub in school sports revolves around his statement: “If anyone felt pressured, no one ever said that.” No Kid is ever gpoing to tell his coach "NO." Players do feel pressured; especially in a inb a team sport like football. Young kids will do anything they can do to be not left out. They don't want to incur the cold shoulder from other players, "You're not joining us?" What if a kid is Muslim and doesn't feel comfortable? Does the Coach mind if he unrolls his prayer blanket and takes half the team with him? This has become a fashionable attempt to mimic high performance College teams. Candians are adopting the same habits. In Canada, the whole team's doing it, but I'm sure only a fractionof the kids actually go to church. (reminds me of AA where peoiple are essentially facing the same issue with the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting - If you don't do it, there's raised eyebrows. Here's a thought, pray by yourself before the game.
Religion belongs in the home & houses of worship. It doesn’t belong in public schools. The problem arises when one religion is the dominant religion to the detriment of others. It’s a nidus for discrimination. I know for I’ve been there.
The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
In my opinion, the only sensible interpretation of the First Amendment, as regards religion, is to prohibit the government from passing laws that impose special restrictions on, or grant special privileges to, activity that is "religious" in nature as opposed to activity that isn't. This is to prevent government from having to define what exactly religion is, which religious organizations are "legitimate", and so on, which I think is precisely what the the authors of the First Amendment wanted to avoid. I realize that there is a body of legislation and case law that may disagree with me to some extent, and since I'm neither a Supreme Court justice, a judge, a constitutional scholar, nor even an attorney, I am not qualified to rule legally on these issues. But unlike some complicated and specialized laws, the Constitution is supposed to be accessible to and understandable by ordinary citizens like me.
I believe that religious freedom (and various other freedoms) are inextricably bound up with property rights, as construed broadly to include one's own time and labor. For example, you can express religious or other opinions in the privacy of your own home, but not in your neighbors' unless they grant you permission to do so. Public spaces, like sidewalks, streets, and parks, are shared among all citizens, and the government is stuck with the task of deciding who gets access to those limited resources. But government shouldn't engage in "viewpoint discrimination", e.g. granting some religious group access to a park, while denying a different one, based on the ideas those groups express.
So, I'll try to apply these principles to Coach Kennedy and his 50-yard prayers:
The football fields in question are not his private property. Also, accepting a coaching job involved selling away some of his time and labor to an employer who had a right to impose restrictions on his activities. For example, if he were hired to teach a math class, the school, public or private, would not be obligated to let him use class time and classroom space to preach a religious doctrine. Libertarians tend to claim (rightly, I think) that conflicts over public school policies involving curricula, religious expression, cultural values, etc., arise precisely because the schools are public. They think the solution is either school choice, to make it easier for parents and students to escape schools that conflict with their standards and needs, or, in the extreme, to do away with public schools altogether.
But Coach Kennedy's case is about public schools and sports events, so we're stuck in a murky area of policy, about which I'm unsure. But I'm sympathetic to the skeptical views of Lee Morris (see his numerous comments on this article).
Can a school teacher sit by themselves at lunch, cross themselves after a private prayer, get noticed by others, have those others voluntarily join said teacher at routine lunch, and then participate voluntarily at the now group lunch?
My understanding is that this above scenario is an equivalent to what happened on the field after the games.
A teacher quietly crossing themselves before a meal is not at all equivalent to a coach getting down on his knees under the lights on the 50 yard line and praying in front of stands full of spectators not to mention a team of minors over whose sports career he has total power. I support the teacher’s right to say a private grace. I do not support the coach’s extravagant display, however sincere.
Regardless, it’s still protected speech. Why does it need to be in private, hidden away? What is so terrifying?
Would you feel the same way if it were a Muslim coach? Or a Wiccan? It just seems that Christians feel very strongly about “religious liberty” when it privileges Christians. What is so terrifying about respecting the separation of church and state? About refraining from conducting mass religious rituals on taxpayer-funded public-school property? I’m not anti-religion by any means, but I think it’s weirdly arrogant - prideful even - to assume your faith is so wonderful and special it has to be displayed for all to see whether they like it or not. And please tell me when Jesus started caring about football.
If you read my other comments you’ll understand me better. I have respect for people who follow their faith in a power greater than themselves. It’s called humility. Where did the mass religious ritual take place? Are you uncomfortable with any display of faith? In addition, if you understood religious people a bit more, you’d know prayer is not rooted in pride (your distain is showing; thou protests too much.) Oh, and Jesus started caring about football exactly at the moment Mr Kennedy prayed in gratitude.
I‘m very close with my Catholic in-laws. I go to mass with them when we visit. I kneel when we should kneel, I pray when we pray. I got married in a Catholic service and baptized our four children for their sakes. I don’t disdain religion.
I do take exception to people of faith judging me for my lack of faith. Several of these family members, though we adore each other and have a blast together (two of whom are my kids’ godparents) openly believe I’m going to Hell. Ditto their gay acquaintances. I find this very confusing and certainly not a religion I’d want to be part of. My f-I-l is adamant that, no matter how a person conducts themselves, no matter how many good works, etc, they are not *truly* good unless they accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. Thus, friends and other family members who’ve cheated on each other, committed crimes, etc. will ALWAYS be better than me though I work in charity and have been faithful to my husband. He regularly supplies me with articles - usual from First Things - that argue this (sometimes subtly sometimes not).
So, I totally respect their faith - truly! But I have real problems with how their faith sees me.
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Proverbs 15:8 ESV
“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”
Matthew 6:5 ESV
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.”
Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.“
Matthew 6:6 ESV
I think the answer depends on the context. If the school were truly private, then it could make whatever rules it liked for its teachers and lunchroom; teachers who didn't like those rules could find a different job. If the school were public, then it could depend on whether the lunchroom served only teachers, hence adults, in which case I would say the answer is probably yes. But if the lunchroom also served children, and the teacher sat down with some children and tried to persuade them to engage in prayer or some other religious activity, then I'm not so sure.
You can be sure. That would not be legal in a public school.
We know the drill, if it would be a trans, lqbtq+, blm protest this would not be an issue. But its Faith and he is white and it is Washignton state...
I’ve not heard of teacher-led, on-school-property protests of anything. And I live in Seattle.
"...this year, the Bremerton School District has put in place a new policy mandating that all students must stay 25 feet away when he kneels to pray."
Lmao! 6 feet for covid-19 and 25 feet for prayer. Administrators and their policies have been a disaster for the human race.
It seems to me, the level of the morals,in this country are inversely proportional to its religiousness.
I see another lawsuit coming. You can't demand that kids and other adults stay away from the praying man without infringing on their freedom. If they want to participate it's their choice not the school's.
That little provision is so lame. The man started by himself. Others joined voluntarily. The school is spooked bc educators(!) don’t understand the concept of separation of church and state.
“The man started by himself” on the 50 yard line!
People have a right to pray at work, even if other people see them.