Would you feel the same way if it were a Muslim coach? Or a Wiccan? It just seems that Christians feel very strongly about “religious liberty” when it privileges Christians. What is so terrifying about respecting the separation of church and state? About refraining from conducting mass religious rituals on taxpayer-funded public-school p…
Would you feel the same way if it were a Muslim coach? Or a Wiccan? It just seems that Christians feel very strongly about “religious liberty” when it privileges Christians. What is so terrifying about respecting the separation of church and state? About refraining from conducting mass religious rituals on taxpayer-funded public-school property? I’m not anti-religion by any means, but I think it’s weirdly arrogant - prideful even - to assume your faith is so wonderful and special it has to be displayed for all to see whether they like it or not. And please tell me when Jesus started caring about football.
If you read my other comments you’ll understand me better. I have respect for people who follow their faith in a power greater than themselves. It’s called humility. Where did the mass religious ritual take place? Are you uncomfortable with any display of faith? In addition, if you understood religious people a bit more, you’d know prayer is not rooted in pride (your distain is showing; thou protests too much.) Oh, and Jesus started caring about football exactly at the moment Mr Kennedy prayed in gratitude.
I‘m very close with my Catholic in-laws. I go to mass with them when we visit. I kneel when we should kneel, I pray when we pray. I got married in a Catholic service and baptized our four children for their sakes. I don’t disdain religion.
I do take exception to people of faith judging me for my lack of faith. Several of these family members, though we adore each other and have a blast together (two of whom are my kids’ godparents) openly believe I’m going to Hell. Ditto their gay acquaintances. I find this very confusing and certainly not a religion I’d want to be part of. My f-I-l is adamant that, no matter how a person conducts themselves, no matter how many good works, etc, they are not *truly* good unless they accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. Thus, friends and other family members who’ve cheated on each other, committed crimes, etc. will ALWAYS be better than me though I work in charity and have been faithful to my husband. He regularly supplies me with articles - usual from First Things - that argue this (sometimes subtly sometimes not).
So, I totally respect their faith - truly! But I have real problems with how their faith sees me.
I’m sorry they judge you. But that is a fallible person judging you, not “the faith”. You’re conflating bad behavior with all things religious. No wonder you have a grudge.
Some of these fallible people are bishops, priests, pastors. There’s plenty in the Bible, too, that judges non-Christians, including, you know, believing they will justly endure an eternity of the most horrible suffering imaginable for the sole reason that they’re not Christian. You should listen to the This American Life episode about the pastor who was kicked out of his mega-church for deciding that God wasn’t sending little starving babies in Africa to hell just because they hadn’t been baptized.
I know many, many absolutely loving, welcoming, non-judging Christians. The priest who baptized my kids is one of the most e beautiful human beings on the planet. The Jesuits who ran both my older sons’ colleges were wonderful, loving, broad/minded, curious people. Friends, family, writers I adore. But I don’t think it’s fair or factually correct for you to suggest that the type of judgement I described is an aberration - just a few bad apples misunderstanding the faith.
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Proverbs 15:8 ESV
“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”
Matthew 6:5 ESV
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.”
Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.“
Funny. I read those passages (and others) to mean that public displays — like, say, praying on the 50 yard line in front of a stadium of people - are pretty much inherently prideful. I think the coach felt his prayer as being humble before the lord - which is sincere and good for him - but maybe didn’t step back and wonder if being humble before his lord in a very public way didn’t actually contradict the lord’s admonitions to not to “stand and pray… that (you) may seem by others.”
I know people of great faith who would never do that. I think coach Kennedy meant no harm, I think he meant only good things. I believe many people enjoyed and felt loved by his prayers. And I think he didn’t need to pray there and then and could have humbly stepped back.
Again, I ask how you’d react if the coach were conducting Muslim prayers on the field. It’s easy to see the actions of those who are like us as good and the same actions by those who are different as unseemly.
For the record, I’m not some atheist firebrand. I accept that God made me the way that I am and made others to believe in him and good for them. I just don’t. I never gave a hoot about saying “under God” in the pledge of allegiance and probably wouldn’t if my kids were saying it (unless they didn’t like it). But we live in a diverse, democratic country where we must constantly make tradeoffs in order to balance as best we can the rights of all. To me, it doesn’t seem like an unfair balance - to be an excessive burden on any religious person - to ask them not to ostentatiously practice their faith on public school property, particularly among students.
I thought I answered the question about if the coach was of a different faith. It wouldn’t bother me; I’ve lived in a Muslim country and understand we’re not all that different from each other. Muslims wouldn’t pray on the field like that though; it would be out of character. Regardless, if spectators wanted to join in, I’d be surprised and then I’d wonder what what compelled to join their coach in such a way. Being in communion with others is a powerful thing. Then I’d be grateful to the coach for showing them humility and gratitude for life’s blessings.
That’s good to hear. I like your response. I think all of these things are wonderful and I wish more Americans could experience communion with others, as you call it, in such a deep way. I believe that many people got that from Coach Kennedy’s group prayers. I also think it’s fair for the government to say that one can’t practice one’s religion on public - taxpayer funded - property. If the coach brought his team together to , for example, hold hands and say an ecumenical “prayer” - without reference or any particular deity or savior, but speak about humility and service and love, etc, and just have a moment of contemplation of our higher purpose, that would be not only acceptable but 100% laudable. I would love if my children’s coaches would do that. I’m afraid I wouldn’t love it if their coaches said all those things were inherently to do with Jesus or any god.
Would you feel the same way if it were a Muslim coach? Or a Wiccan? It just seems that Christians feel very strongly about “religious liberty” when it privileges Christians. What is so terrifying about respecting the separation of church and state? About refraining from conducting mass religious rituals on taxpayer-funded public-school property? I’m not anti-religion by any means, but I think it’s weirdly arrogant - prideful even - to assume your faith is so wonderful and special it has to be displayed for all to see whether they like it or not. And please tell me when Jesus started caring about football.
If you read my other comments you’ll understand me better. I have respect for people who follow their faith in a power greater than themselves. It’s called humility. Where did the mass religious ritual take place? Are you uncomfortable with any display of faith? In addition, if you understood religious people a bit more, you’d know prayer is not rooted in pride (your distain is showing; thou protests too much.) Oh, and Jesus started caring about football exactly at the moment Mr Kennedy prayed in gratitude.
I‘m very close with my Catholic in-laws. I go to mass with them when we visit. I kneel when we should kneel, I pray when we pray. I got married in a Catholic service and baptized our four children for their sakes. I don’t disdain religion.
I do take exception to people of faith judging me for my lack of faith. Several of these family members, though we adore each other and have a blast together (two of whom are my kids’ godparents) openly believe I’m going to Hell. Ditto their gay acquaintances. I find this very confusing and certainly not a religion I’d want to be part of. My f-I-l is adamant that, no matter how a person conducts themselves, no matter how many good works, etc, they are not *truly* good unless they accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. Thus, friends and other family members who’ve cheated on each other, committed crimes, etc. will ALWAYS be better than me though I work in charity and have been faithful to my husband. He regularly supplies me with articles - usual from First Things - that argue this (sometimes subtly sometimes not).
So, I totally respect their faith - truly! But I have real problems with how their faith sees me.
I’m sorry they judge you. But that is a fallible person judging you, not “the faith”. You’re conflating bad behavior with all things religious. No wonder you have a grudge.
Some of these fallible people are bishops, priests, pastors. There’s plenty in the Bible, too, that judges non-Christians, including, you know, believing they will justly endure an eternity of the most horrible suffering imaginable for the sole reason that they’re not Christian. You should listen to the This American Life episode about the pastor who was kicked out of his mega-church for deciding that God wasn’t sending little starving babies in Africa to hell just because they hadn’t been baptized.
I know many, many absolutely loving, welcoming, non-judging Christians. The priest who baptized my kids is one of the most e beautiful human beings on the planet. The Jesuits who ran both my older sons’ colleges were wonderful, loving, broad/minded, curious people. Friends, family, writers I adore. But I don’t think it’s fair or factually correct for you to suggest that the type of judgement I described is an aberration - just a few bad apples misunderstanding the faith.
Definitely not an aberration. People practice their faith not because they think they’re perfect. It’s because they know they are not.
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Proverbs 15:8 ESV
“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”
Matthew 6:5 ESV
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.”
Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.“
Matthew 6:6 ESV
Excellent. The key motivator here for someone being prideful instead of humble. Both motivators, however, sometimes happen in public.
Funny. I read those passages (and others) to mean that public displays — like, say, praying on the 50 yard line in front of a stadium of people - are pretty much inherently prideful. I think the coach felt his prayer as being humble before the lord - which is sincere and good for him - but maybe didn’t step back and wonder if being humble before his lord in a very public way didn’t actually contradict the lord’s admonitions to not to “stand and pray… that (you) may seem by others.”
I know people of great faith who would never do that. I think coach Kennedy meant no harm, I think he meant only good things. I believe many people enjoyed and felt loved by his prayers. And I think he didn’t need to pray there and then and could have humbly stepped back.
Again, I ask how you’d react if the coach were conducting Muslim prayers on the field. It’s easy to see the actions of those who are like us as good and the same actions by those who are different as unseemly.
For the record, I’m not some atheist firebrand. I accept that God made me the way that I am and made others to believe in him and good for them. I just don’t. I never gave a hoot about saying “under God” in the pledge of allegiance and probably wouldn’t if my kids were saying it (unless they didn’t like it). But we live in a diverse, democratic country where we must constantly make tradeoffs in order to balance as best we can the rights of all. To me, it doesn’t seem like an unfair balance - to be an excessive burden on any religious person - to ask them not to ostentatiously practice their faith on public school property, particularly among students.
I thought I answered the question about if the coach was of a different faith. It wouldn’t bother me; I’ve lived in a Muslim country and understand we’re not all that different from each other. Muslims wouldn’t pray on the field like that though; it would be out of character. Regardless, if spectators wanted to join in, I’d be surprised and then I’d wonder what what compelled to join their coach in such a way. Being in communion with others is a powerful thing. Then I’d be grateful to the coach for showing them humility and gratitude for life’s blessings.
That’s good to hear. I like your response. I think all of these things are wonderful and I wish more Americans could experience communion with others, as you call it, in such a deep way. I believe that many people got that from Coach Kennedy’s group prayers. I also think it’s fair for the government to say that one can’t practice one’s religion on public - taxpayer funded - property. If the coach brought his team together to , for example, hold hands and say an ecumenical “prayer” - without reference or any particular deity or savior, but speak about humility and service and love, etc, and just have a moment of contemplation of our higher purpose, that would be not only acceptable but 100% laudable. I would love if my children’s coaches would do that. I’m afraid I wouldn’t love it if their coaches said all those things were inherently to do with Jesus or any god.