That was really interesting. It sort of makes me more confused about some things; particularly that I’m NOT manic depressive: How it missed me I have no idea, but I’m grateful. I have, however, experienced those “brain burst” moments, as I call them.
Maybe I’m just asking the wrong question.
I’ve gone through hell because of being smart. You’re a resource, not a person. I’d trade it in a heartbeat. I hate the thought of someone else going through that.
But that doesn’t mean it necessarily ought to be a protected class. Nevertheless, it does need some sort of protection - particularly in the workplace.
How I know? I watch TV news about the latest mass shootings. There obviously is a big problem in the US with guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have guns. Don't You agree?
Well I’ve scrolled through the comments, listened to audiobook and several other interviews. My late brother had paranoid schizophrenia --mercifully his meds worked and he took them--and I’ve known other individuals with the condition.
I find Michael Lauder a most unreliable narrator. Part of me wishes that this beautifully written book contained more fact checking. Did Lauder really phone his dad every morning from Yale Law School to be reassured that the flames engulfing his bedroom were not real. Once certainly. Possibly more than once. But every day? It’s such a great story. Imho he made stuff up to create a palatable version of his illness while hiding the most disturbing and troubling aspects. Lauder went to Hollywood even bf Hollywood came to him.
I really liked this interview and have passed it on to others. Thanks, Bari and Jonathan. I am moved by your discussion of the good intentions gone awry in mental health care, especially in doing away with the institutions, while not replacing them with viable alternatives. While recognizing the – in some cases deeply tragic – shortcomings and failures of “deinstitutionalization”, I also recognize the necessary and positive aspects (or at least intentions) of the reforms, like giving more respect to the individual with mental illness, reducing stigma, fostering hope and promoting community integration. In dealing with the current complex crises related to mental health, I hope that we as a society can find solutions which are truly compassionate, respectful and empowering, while also responsible – toward the individual with mental illness as well as toward their loved ones and society as a whole. In moving forward as a society, it is clear to me that institutions and medication alone are not the answer. Nor is it the answer to simply leave individuals who are suffering from acute symptoms of severe mental illness to their own "autonomous choices". I am wondering how you see the recovery model in mental health care, created by clinicians with personal experience with mental illness, such as Pat Deegan. https://www.commongroundprogram.com/about-pat-deegan. I find this model promising and would love to hear your and other thoughtful subscribers' views.
Finished five chapters of the book, ‘The Best Minds,' which I ordered to learn more about Michael. After five chapters I know very little about Michael, other than he was apparently brilliant and well liked. But I know far more about the author Jonathan Rosen, who obviously had (has) serious self esteem issues along with Michael envy. If this book is supposed to be about Michael, the first five chapters could have been summed up in a few pages or no more than one chapter before moving on to the substance. I've started to skim ahead as I have no real interest in what records the author listened to, or his difficulties with public speaking, or him getting beat up in high school. I bought the book to learn more about Michael, but so far the book is (mostly) about the failings (real/perceived) of Jonathan Rosen, the author, which frankly is boring. Skipping ahead to Michael's story, which I hope is actually in the book.
Wow, so much to say. I was diagnosed with schizophrenia about 10 years ago after my first psychotic episode. My parents took me to a hospital in hopes that I would admit myself, but I was too far gone to even know where I was, let alone cooperate. They submitted a petition for court ordered evaluation, it was accepted, and I was taken by police to a hospital against my will. This was an awful, but NECESSARY, experience for me. In the hospital I got the help I needed. I was released in about 4 weeks and court ordered to get treatment in the community, which I did. A ton has happened since then, but today I am stable on a single injection that I take every 6 months. I am able to run my own business in the pet care industry, make an income that is more than self-supporting, and live independently. That was possible "in the community," but only because I am completely compliant with my treatment plan and have always taken my medication.
It happened before my time, but I definitely think society threw the baby out with the bath water when they tore down state hospitals in the name of deinstitutionalization. If a seriously mentally ill person is not compliant with a treatment plan, they should not be left out in the community where they can cause harm. I'm writing my own Substack, partly because I DO want to reduce mental health stigma – but reducing stigma does not, and should not, require that we lie about the seriousness of mental illnesses like schizophrenia.
Anyway, more to say, but this comment is long enough already haha
Also, being too much enamored of genius itself and not sufficiently grounded and modest. Somehow buying into Foucault’s postmodern logic that everything is about power and that the mentally ill can be freed from the chains of their psychoses simply by opening the doors is not only the height of arrogance, it is actively cruel and evil. And the well-meaning Yale profs who accepted Michael because his genius deserved a chance were themselves participating in this cruelty.
I bought it from Barnes and Noble because Bookshop.org does not stock Irreversible Damage and I don't do business with hysterical, trans-lobby-worshipping, anti-free speech Puritan philistines and none of you should either.
Here's a summary: There was a guy who was smart. Lots of people are smart. So he was allowed to believe that he wasn't only smart, but that he was special too. And other people convinced themselves and him that he was indeed special. He got into Yale. That is the proof that he was both smart and special. And then, famous people thought this would be a great way to make some money by making a movie about someone being smart and special and going to Yale. That's where smart and special people get to go. And the smart and special guy thought he was smart and special too and he liked the attention and knew he also might get famous and rich. And these are Americans so, getting rich and famous is the only thing that matters to them. But then he killed his girlfriend. And now, we should buy a book about it so someone can at least make a few bucks off the story before it gets lost and other people get rich and famous for other things...
The value of this interview is show how far back the utter insensitivity of the elites go. Yale was so highly infected it severely injured this bright young man because it elevated his peculiar frontal cortex above all else. He must not be treated as a man needing help because the Yalies must preserve another one of their brainiacs above all else. After all these are the brains which will give us in the ensuing years all the woke nonsense we deal with today.
This is what happens when a nation or empire gets so wealthy that it breeds too many intellectual elites, not only divorced from reality but filled with a rage against everyone else who doesn't have their peculiar large frontal lobes, that they take over the universities and then every other institution in America. They do not have the physical courage to actually bring these changes about, they indoctrinate impressionable students who do their bidding. And it is clear that the universities have a police force - these very brown shirts called "activists."
I am not railing against brain power but brain power divorced from common sense, street sense and humility. It happens throughout history when a nation's wealthy outgrow the status of material rewards and seek the status of supporting these insipid geniuses. Now the "geniuses" rule us.
Flip side: my mom’s cousin has been married to a guy with schizophrenia for around forty years, and he’s been stable for a very long time. They have an adult son.
With so many people acting like Michael was excelling in spite of his illness, it was probably not difficult for Carrie to convince herself that everything would be okay.
Regarding Caroline M Costello, Yale graduate, 1961-1998, see NYT 06/19/1998 and Find-a-Grave (Newton Mass). ''She was in love with him,'' Ms. Banner said (NYT).
Wow, thank You!
That was really interesting. It sort of makes me more confused about some things; particularly that I’m NOT manic depressive: How it missed me I have no idea, but I’m grateful. I have, however, experienced those “brain burst” moments, as I call them.
Maybe I’m just asking the wrong question.
I’ve gone through hell because of being smart. You’re a resource, not a person. I’d trade it in a heartbeat. I hate the thought of someone else going through that.
But that doesn’t mean it necessarily ought to be a protected class. Nevertheless, it does need some sort of protection - particularly in the workplace.
How I know? I watch TV news about the latest mass shootings. There obviously is a big problem in the US with guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have guns. Don't You agree?
Well I’ve scrolled through the comments, listened to audiobook and several other interviews. My late brother had paranoid schizophrenia --mercifully his meds worked and he took them--and I’ve known other individuals with the condition.
I find Michael Lauder a most unreliable narrator. Part of me wishes that this beautifully written book contained more fact checking. Did Lauder really phone his dad every morning from Yale Law School to be reassured that the flames engulfing his bedroom were not real. Once certainly. Possibly more than once. But every day? It’s such a great story. Imho he made stuff up to create a palatable version of his illness while hiding the most disturbing and troubling aspects. Lauder went to Hollywood even bf Hollywood came to him.
I really liked this interview and have passed it on to others. Thanks, Bari and Jonathan. I am moved by your discussion of the good intentions gone awry in mental health care, especially in doing away with the institutions, while not replacing them with viable alternatives. While recognizing the – in some cases deeply tragic – shortcomings and failures of “deinstitutionalization”, I also recognize the necessary and positive aspects (or at least intentions) of the reforms, like giving more respect to the individual with mental illness, reducing stigma, fostering hope and promoting community integration. In dealing with the current complex crises related to mental health, I hope that we as a society can find solutions which are truly compassionate, respectful and empowering, while also responsible – toward the individual with mental illness as well as toward their loved ones and society as a whole. In moving forward as a society, it is clear to me that institutions and medication alone are not the answer. Nor is it the answer to simply leave individuals who are suffering from acute symptoms of severe mental illness to their own "autonomous choices". I am wondering how you see the recovery model in mental health care, created by clinicians with personal experience with mental illness, such as Pat Deegan. https://www.commongroundprogram.com/about-pat-deegan. I find this model promising and would love to hear your and other thoughtful subscribers' views.
Grace M-T: Thank you! After asking that question, I searched all over the internet to no avail for the answer.
He’s been on a few other podcasts as I found via Listen Notes
Keen On: Ep 1441
https://lnns.co/yRJ4j_hfUzn
Coming Home: Ep. 359
https://lnns.co/ECuPgVbI5al
In one of them Rosen added he no longer visits Lauder.
Finished five chapters of the book, ‘The Best Minds,' which I ordered to learn more about Michael. After five chapters I know very little about Michael, other than he was apparently brilliant and well liked. But I know far more about the author Jonathan Rosen, who obviously had (has) serious self esteem issues along with Michael envy. If this book is supposed to be about Michael, the first five chapters could have been summed up in a few pages or no more than one chapter before moving on to the substance. I've started to skim ahead as I have no real interest in what records the author listened to, or his difficulties with public speaking, or him getting beat up in high school. I bought the book to learn more about Michael, but so far the book is (mostly) about the failings (real/perceived) of Jonathan Rosen, the author, which frankly is boring. Skipping ahead to Michael's story, which I hope is actually in the book.
Another thing that can lead one to "immediately participate" is love, and the desire to ease the pain.
Wow, so much to say. I was diagnosed with schizophrenia about 10 years ago after my first psychotic episode. My parents took me to a hospital in hopes that I would admit myself, but I was too far gone to even know where I was, let alone cooperate. They submitted a petition for court ordered evaluation, it was accepted, and I was taken by police to a hospital against my will. This was an awful, but NECESSARY, experience for me. In the hospital I got the help I needed. I was released in about 4 weeks and court ordered to get treatment in the community, which I did. A ton has happened since then, but today I am stable on a single injection that I take every 6 months. I am able to run my own business in the pet care industry, make an income that is more than self-supporting, and live independently. That was possible "in the community," but only because I am completely compliant with my treatment plan and have always taken my medication.
It happened before my time, but I definitely think society threw the baby out with the bath water when they tore down state hospitals in the name of deinstitutionalization. If a seriously mentally ill person is not compliant with a treatment plan, they should not be left out in the community where they can cause harm. I'm writing my own Substack, partly because I DO want to reduce mental health stigma – but reducing stigma does not, and should not, require that we lie about the seriousness of mental illnesses like schizophrenia.
Anyway, more to say, but this comment is long enough already haha
I’m glad to hear you’re doing so well.
Also, being too much enamored of genius itself and not sufficiently grounded and modest. Somehow buying into Foucault’s postmodern logic that everything is about power and that the mentally ill can be freed from the chains of their psychoses simply by opening the doors is not only the height of arrogance, it is actively cruel and evil. And the well-meaning Yale profs who accepted Michael because his genius deserved a chance were themselves participating in this cruelty.
It saddens me to think that mental illness is basically a terminal illness that can only be controlled to a certain degree
This put a huge burden on all of the mental illness for cities to control
I bought it from Barnes and Noble because Bookshop.org does not stock Irreversible Damage and I don't do business with hysterical, trans-lobby-worshipping, anti-free speech Puritan philistines and none of you should either.
Here's a summary: There was a guy who was smart. Lots of people are smart. So he was allowed to believe that he wasn't only smart, but that he was special too. And other people convinced themselves and him that he was indeed special. He got into Yale. That is the proof that he was both smart and special. And then, famous people thought this would be a great way to make some money by making a movie about someone being smart and special and going to Yale. That's where smart and special people get to go. And the smart and special guy thought he was smart and special too and he liked the attention and knew he also might get famous and rich. And these are Americans so, getting rich and famous is the only thing that matters to them. But then he killed his girlfriend. And now, we should buy a book about it so someone can at least make a few bucks off the story before it gets lost and other people get rich and famous for other things...
A great Honestly.
The value of this interview is show how far back the utter insensitivity of the elites go. Yale was so highly infected it severely injured this bright young man because it elevated his peculiar frontal cortex above all else. He must not be treated as a man needing help because the Yalies must preserve another one of their brainiacs above all else. After all these are the brains which will give us in the ensuing years all the woke nonsense we deal with today.
This is what happens when a nation or empire gets so wealthy that it breeds too many intellectual elites, not only divorced from reality but filled with a rage against everyone else who doesn't have their peculiar large frontal lobes, that they take over the universities and then every other institution in America. They do not have the physical courage to actually bring these changes about, they indoctrinate impressionable students who do their bidding. And it is clear that the universities have a police force - these very brown shirts called "activists."
I am not railing against brain power but brain power divorced from common sense, street sense and humility. It happens throughout history when a nation's wealthy outgrow the status of material rewards and seek the status of supporting these insipid geniuses. Now the "geniuses" rule us.
I think your point is perfectly illustrated by the complete lack of regard for the unfortunate fiancee and "her baby".
Two comments: 1. We went from stigmatizing mental illness to glorifying it.
2. I'm certainly not blaming the victim, but why on earth would this woman want to have a baby with a schizo.
why on earth does any spouse stay with abusive or destructive partners, it happens.
Flip side: my mom’s cousin has been married to a guy with schizophrenia for around forty years, and he’s been stable for a very long time. They have an adult son.
With so many people acting like Michael was excelling in spite of his illness, it was probably not difficult for Carrie to convince herself that everything would be okay.
Regarding Caroline M Costello, Yale graduate, 1961-1998, see NYT 06/19/1998 and Find-a-Grave (Newton Mass). ''She was in love with him,'' Ms. Banner said (NYT).