It was interesting to me how many people said openly, in effect, I DON'T CARE WHAT THE TRUTH IS. That is why that person with the rainbow shirt stood out as different.
There's something fundamentally insane about not caring what the truth is, with clinging to known falsehoods for the simple reason that they are emotionally simpler and fac…
It was interesting to me how many people said openly, in effect, I DON'T CARE WHAT THE TRUTH IS. That is why that person with the rainbow shirt stood out as different.
There's something fundamentally insane about not caring what the truth is, with clinging to known falsehoods for the simple reason that they are emotionally simpler and facilitate hate.
If you look for reasons to hate, you will find them everywhere, and most of the time it seems to me the Left does not exist for any positive purpose whatever, but on the contrary for the rationalization of hatred and division.
Ben, in this piece, was playing the part of an honest Liberal, and that in my book is good and honorable. If you're wrong, admit it. There are probably no societies in human history which did not teach that; and those who stopped, stopped functioning and eventually disappeared.
I was appalled at the responses by the people at the end of the interview. Almost as if to say we need this to be a hate crime to support our cause so don’t you be revealing the truth. Disgusting. Also I detest the notion of “hate” crimes. Elevated punishment because a person was motivated to kill by bigotry? Make it make sense. Like that’s worse than what the Idaho murderer did?
Respectfully disagree. Someone can be ruthless, cunning sociopath. A robber who kills their victim because he wants to make sure there are no witnesses…nuthin’ personal, just part of the “job”.
I completely agree. The whole concept of a “hate crime” is irretrievably flawed. A crime is a crime, and that is what is being judged. For the judicial system to pretend to be able to glean all of a perpetrator’s motives is both hubris and irrelevant. The real reason is to coerce one’s belief system, which free societies should not be engaged in. The proof that hate crime laws fail the public lies in how often they are abused by activists with phony claims.
Whenever I hear something promoted as a Hate Crime as opposed to a "regular crime" (caps intentional), it somehow diminishes the anguish and fear of any crime not promoted as a Hate Crime. It lessens the impact of the crime on the victim.
I also think that even if we have been properly and completely socialized out of primary narcissism, most of us are never socialized out of tribalism, or confirmation bias. I know I am certainly subject to it.
True, but to be aware is to be able to choose; and to be an adult is to choose wisely. We cant choose our genetic inheritance, but to some great extent our awareness of it enhances our potential freedom.
I could join others and make the case that ignorance is the only true sin; and willful and determined ignorance the only real evil.
We all get angry, and we all hate at times. But most of us dont get stuck in either. You need daily support to do that.
Having a tribal us vs them mindset is not the same as being angry all the time, nor even hateful. It's just a misplaced sense of one's own righteousness. And we all have that to some degree, all the time.
I suppose it's how one acts on that sense of righteousness that shows how civilized you are.
I am a long time gay rights activist. I absolutely care about the truth. I am deeply touched by this reporting and I’m happy to learn that it was not a hate crime. That said, I’m still a liberal democrat even though the party and party of its voters are not perfect.
Yes. I’m actually not in the USA full time and haven’t been doing ground work in the community since about 2010. I was involved from the late 80’s to 2010 or so. I won’t share my life online in details but as you can probably read, English is not my first language. Anyhow, I was not aware of what was exposed in the documentary. People here make assumptions about what I think or whatever because I said I’m still a liberal. I, unlike most I read here who are GOP, can admit without any shame or distortion that the party I align with mostly is not perfect -such has many people who actually work at the Free Press. Maybe the difference between us and the blinded cult GOP people resides in our capacity to self criticize.
Oh come on. The left abandoned liberalism a long time ago. These “activist” grifters are literally using a young man’s death as a gay pride marketing prop and excuse to stoke fear and hatred against rural Americans. If you are truly possessed of such a rare “capacity for self criticism” for the party you still align with, seems like you might have noticed these things.
Thanks for the reply. I would not have guessed that English isn’t your first language.
I asked the question because I learned the truth about the Shepard case several years ago, so it’s especially surprising that you, as a gay rights activist, were unaware. Please believe that I don’t say that to mock you, it’s genuinely interesting to me. I’m fascinated by how deeply false narratives become entrenched in the public consciousness, which is in part because, as we see in Ben’s report, some people choose to believe the myth, accept the lie. It’s also due to the fact that many others are in media silos, getting only news that confirms their biases. Not we Free Press subscribers, of course.
There are many other disproven stories that people believe and politicians exploit to this day. “Hands up, don’t shoot” is a good example.
Regarding self-reflection, openmindedness, and critical thinking, or lack thereof, I can assure you there are as many democrats as there are republicans who cling with cult-like fervor to their beliefs and support their leaders no matter what new information is presented to them. Tribalism leads to groupthink. That’s among the reasons I belong to no party or tribe.
I actually always been reading newspapers of different political allegiances but in Canada we are way less divided than in the USA. the “right” is not as extreme and the “left” is actually closer to a real left than the democrats will ever be (i’m not talking about blm or gender crap, I’m talking universal healthcare, accessible education for all, separation of religion and state -which the majority of Conservatives are in favor of here as well). We seem to see the wellbeing of our society at large as a plus for everyone here. I think that the last 60yrs of the history of Québec is a perfect example of the success of these values and this is why I will always choose a political party that understands that. But to stay in the topic of Shepard, another good example is the central park bird watcher story with that poor woman walking her dog. no one I know heard about the truth. very few people I know read anything else than local news or flash news on FB. Local medias have lower budget than ever. they do less research than they use to. This is also part of the problem. Finally, you are right that there are moderates and open minded people in both parties. my perspective is screwed by too much precious time lost on Twitter -which is actually not representative of the mass. There are also plenty of never Trumpers that are deeply active in politics like George Conway for example and many in Trump ex cabinet that openly say they will vote democrats because trump is just awful and literally dangerous for the world. I do not believe that the elected democrats are all « woke » voluntarily blinding themselves nor die hard fans of identity politics. But I do not understand why so many people who read TFP and listen to Honestly keep on saying that Trump and the GOP are stainless. These people are anything but honest.
MCC, thanks for your post and honesty. I’m from the other side of the aisle but respect your reflection upon the truth, even if it doesn’t change your voting (I wouldn’t expect that given your life’s work).
After grasping Ben’s point (are Laramie & small towns unfairly painted as bigoted), I was reminded what Obama later said about those in similar economically-gutted small towns positing “they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Then later, in 2015 Hillary Clinton simply referred to these people as ‘deplorables’. Is it hyperbole to bring in Biden and his cry that MAGA is a threat to democracy (knowing many MAGA voters are rural?)
Did the Matthew Shepard anti-gay narrative feed/start this ‘dehumanization’ of rural Americans? Maybe it’s been there all along and the Shepard murder and framing provided further illustration (useful to those interested in division) in the long running Urban v. Rural divide and conquer, movie. I couldn’t help but see a ‘through line’ to paint rural as backward and less-than. Certainly the Laramie Project did that. Divisions are useful to politicians of all stripes.
I was not born in a big city. I had no recollection of where the Shepard story happened other than being in the USA. There have been homophobic murders of gay men in big cities, even one serial killer in my city in the 70’s 80’s. At the time, the police neglected these murders because they were gay men. The work of activists changed that, the police admitted their wrong doings and have greatly improved since and been an ally of the gay community. There is also a man who shot 14 young women in the head at the engineering school of Montreal because they were women. He wrote a manifesto. Misogynistic behavior does not belong to rural areas. Sadly, these terrible events happen everywhere and more chances they will happen in big cities cause we are way more populated. The Shepard story might have created an unjustified fear of middle America for some. In my view, probably to the ones who have never been victims of true discrimination and aggressive homophobic behavior … the young “queers” which many are not even gay. They often look like young people who need a cause, something to rebel from, something to make them look different. Innocent do gooders believe them cause they want to be nice. A form of ignorance I guess. But It is probable that there is more homophobia and misunderstanding about gay people in small rural areas which are not as exposed to gay people as big cities. but this is really changing, I witnessed it traveling a lot in the usa. That said, i believe that the rural-urban divide has been in the making way before these events, before gay rights. I do believe that part of it is to blame on religion - greedy preachers scaring people in rural areas - and anti workers rights republicans. The book What’s the matter with Kansas presents a pretty good historical perspective of this. The poverty and ignorance outside the cities is staggering in the USA. There is ignorance in the cities as well (or just screwed knowledge) but the ignorance of the world, the fear of the other is definitely present in rural areas not to mention the bad bad health of its residents. I don’t think that the cry that maga is a threat to democracy has to do with rural. There are plenty of ultra wealthy city assholes that are maga, including Donald Trump.
Jeffrey Dahmer, a gay psychopath, killed more men than anyone as a function of his own gay lifestyle. Many of those men he met at "bathhouses" and were happy to go back to a stranger's apartment. In the late 80s and early 90s AIDS was either misunderstood and / or was lacking in information and knowledge generally leading to the police stepping back and Dahmer's unstoppable psychopathy. I watched the series created by Ian Brennan (a friend's son) and I grew up not far from Milwaukee but wasn't living in the state at the time. Neither Dahmer nor his victims met at church.
It's so easy to throw people into categories to suit your argument. It's also ignorant and downright asinine. As always, let's blame those who practice a belief in God. So, once again, God help you.
Good to know that the real problem in America is people who go to church. After our church feeds the hungry, supports refugees, and works with moms newly out of prison among other things -- we're just basic haters at heart.
That is exactly what I wrote Marcia….. that the problem are people who go to church. Why don’t you act in good faith? reread what I wrote or simply be honest about it like that good virtue your God teaches you.
Is there an important moral difference between not caring what the truth is, and not caring if your people lie?
We are supposed to hate Trump because we are told “he is a liar”, but when you ask people making this accusation to give ONE example they cant. They either link a long list of lies told by the Press ABOUT Trump, or shut up.
Even Snopes recently admitted, after some 8 years, that Trumo never called Nazis “very fine people”. They knew that 8 years and ago, but only admitted it now.
If you are a good person you tell the truth and RIGHTLY mistrust proven liars. Anyone who will lie once will lie twice.
There is that famous Solhenitsyn quote to the effect that they lied, we knew they were lying, and they knew we knew they were lying, but they did it anyway. I think this is something like that.
Somehow--and I am seeing this on this thread TODAY--even if these people know their leaders are lying, as long as it is a congenial lie, they are fine with it. It makes them feel better.
It's a mental illness I don't really understand. However,, I seem to have all the defects in myself that I see in everyone else, so I will introspect on it a while. It's certainly very foreign to my own patterns of thought and behavior, and obviously inimical to an honest and functional society, but it is there, so we need to try and understand it.
It was interesting to me how many people said openly, in effect, I DON'T CARE WHAT THE TRUTH IS. That is why that person with the rainbow shirt stood out as different.
There's something fundamentally insane about not caring what the truth is, with clinging to known falsehoods for the simple reason that they are emotionally simpler and facilitate hate.
If you look for reasons to hate, you will find them everywhere, and most of the time it seems to me the Left does not exist for any positive purpose whatever, but on the contrary for the rationalization of hatred and division.
Ben, in this piece, was playing the part of an honest Liberal, and that in my book is good and honorable. If you're wrong, admit it. There are probably no societies in human history which did not teach that; and those who stopped, stopped functioning and eventually disappeared.
There is a very good book, published maybe 10+ years ago about this murder.
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Matt-Matthew-Documentary-Narratives/dp/1586422529/ref=sr_1_1
I was appalled at the responses by the people at the end of the interview. Almost as if to say we need this to be a hate crime to support our cause so don’t you be revealing the truth. Disgusting. Also I detest the notion of “hate” crimes. Elevated punishment because a person was motivated to kill by bigotry? Make it make sense. Like that’s worse than what the Idaho murderer did?
Agree 💯! I assume all crime is hate of some kind. Why else would you kill someone?
Hate is bad, we all agree.
But the government does not have the right, nor the power, to define or ban "hate".
All murders are hate crimes.
Not so. What about the person who kills for greed? Contract killers or the nephew who kills because he wants his inheritance?
One has to hate the idea of living victims in order to murder.
Respectfully disagree. Someone can be ruthless, cunning sociopath. A robber who kills their victim because he wants to make sure there are no witnesses…nuthin’ personal, just part of the “job”.
I completely agree. The whole concept of a “hate crime” is irretrievably flawed. A crime is a crime, and that is what is being judged. For the judicial system to pretend to be able to glean all of a perpetrator’s motives is both hubris and irrelevant. The real reason is to coerce one’s belief system, which free societies should not be engaged in. The proof that hate crime laws fail the public lies in how often they are abused by activists with phony claims.
Right, one is not "more dead" because a murder was committed for hateful reasons vs. for the reason of just acquiring someone else's cash.
Whenever I hear something promoted as a Hate Crime as opposed to a "regular crime" (caps intentional), it somehow diminishes the anguish and fear of any crime not promoted as a Hate Crime. It lessens the impact of the crime on the victim.
Well said, Sea Sentry.
LIKE
The exact same kind of thinking and worldview that leads to queers for Palestine and a man can be a woman.
It always comes down to whatever makes one feel good or self-righteous. ALWAYS!
It's always about the narrative. Always!!
I personally find it impossible to differentiate between that and a three year old that was never socialized out of his or her primary narcissism.
🛎️🔨
Do you think many three year olds, in the last 30, 40, 50 years, have been socialized out of their primary narcissism?
Not enough, certainly. And Jordan Peterson has talked a fair amount about this.
I also think that even if we have been properly and completely socialized out of primary narcissism, most of us are never socialized out of tribalism, or confirmation bias. I know I am certainly subject to it.
True, but to be aware is to be able to choose; and to be an adult is to choose wisely. We cant choose our genetic inheritance, but to some great extent our awareness of it enhances our potential freedom.
I could join others and make the case that ignorance is the only true sin; and willful and determined ignorance the only real evil.
We all get angry, and we all hate at times. But most of us dont get stuck in either. You need daily support to do that.
Having a tribal us vs them mindset is not the same as being angry all the time, nor even hateful. It's just a misplaced sense of one's own righteousness. And we all have that to some degree, all the time.
I suppose it's how one acts on that sense of righteousness that shows how civilized you are.
"I DON'T CARE WHAT THE TRUTH IS."
This literally describes anyone that would continue to vote for the lib/dem/progressive party.
I am a long time gay rights activist. I absolutely care about the truth. I am deeply touched by this reporting and I’m happy to learn that it was not a hate crime. That said, I’m still a liberal democrat even though the party and party of its voters are not perfect.
Thank you, Ben, for presenting the drug involvement in this crime. I had never heard about it. So glad you’re exploring fly-over country.
I’m curious, do I read your comment correctly that prior to this, you were still under the impression that it was a homophobic hate crime?
Yes. I’m actually not in the USA full time and haven’t been doing ground work in the community since about 2010. I was involved from the late 80’s to 2010 or so. I won’t share my life online in details but as you can probably read, English is not my first language. Anyhow, I was not aware of what was exposed in the documentary. People here make assumptions about what I think or whatever because I said I’m still a liberal. I, unlike most I read here who are GOP, can admit without any shame or distortion that the party I align with mostly is not perfect -such has many people who actually work at the Free Press. Maybe the difference between us and the blinded cult GOP people resides in our capacity to self criticize.
Relevant:
The Importance of Getting the Full Picture – Persuasion (Apr 2024)
https://www.persuasion.community/p/the-importance-of-getting-the-full
Minnesota AG explains why Floyd’s death not charged as hate crime – The Hill (Apr 2021)
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/550211-minnesota-ag-explains-why-floyd-death-not-charged-as-hate-crime/
Everyone Got The Pulse Massacre Story Completely Wrong – HuffPost (Apr 2018)
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/noor-salman-pulse-massacre-wrong_n_5ac29ebae4b04646b6454dc2
Oh come on. The left abandoned liberalism a long time ago. These “activist” grifters are literally using a young man’s death as a gay pride marketing prop and excuse to stoke fear and hatred against rural Americans. If you are truly possessed of such a rare “capacity for self criticism” for the party you still align with, seems like you might have noticed these things.
Thanks for the reply. I would not have guessed that English isn’t your first language.
I asked the question because I learned the truth about the Shepard case several years ago, so it’s especially surprising that you, as a gay rights activist, were unaware. Please believe that I don’t say that to mock you, it’s genuinely interesting to me. I’m fascinated by how deeply false narratives become entrenched in the public consciousness, which is in part because, as we see in Ben’s report, some people choose to believe the myth, accept the lie. It’s also due to the fact that many others are in media silos, getting only news that confirms their biases. Not we Free Press subscribers, of course.
There are many other disproven stories that people believe and politicians exploit to this day. “Hands up, don’t shoot” is a good example.
Regarding self-reflection, openmindedness, and critical thinking, or lack thereof, I can assure you there are as many democrats as there are republicans who cling with cult-like fervor to their beliefs and support their leaders no matter what new information is presented to them. Tribalism leads to groupthink. That’s among the reasons I belong to no party or tribe.
I actually always been reading newspapers of different political allegiances but in Canada we are way less divided than in the USA. the “right” is not as extreme and the “left” is actually closer to a real left than the democrats will ever be (i’m not talking about blm or gender crap, I’m talking universal healthcare, accessible education for all, separation of religion and state -which the majority of Conservatives are in favor of here as well). We seem to see the wellbeing of our society at large as a plus for everyone here. I think that the last 60yrs of the history of Québec is a perfect example of the success of these values and this is why I will always choose a political party that understands that. But to stay in the topic of Shepard, another good example is the central park bird watcher story with that poor woman walking her dog. no one I know heard about the truth. very few people I know read anything else than local news or flash news on FB. Local medias have lower budget than ever. they do less research than they use to. This is also part of the problem. Finally, you are right that there are moderates and open minded people in both parties. my perspective is screwed by too much precious time lost on Twitter -which is actually not representative of the mass. There are also plenty of never Trumpers that are deeply active in politics like George Conway for example and many in Trump ex cabinet that openly say they will vote democrats because trump is just awful and literally dangerous for the world. I do not believe that the elected democrats are all « woke » voluntarily blinding themselves nor die hard fans of identity politics. But I do not understand why so many people who read TFP and listen to Honestly keep on saying that Trump and the GOP are stainless. These people are anything but honest.
For more years
Fair enough. I felt the same on the right and still do... but I left the GOP years ago.
MCC, thanks for your post and honesty. I’m from the other side of the aisle but respect your reflection upon the truth, even if it doesn’t change your voting (I wouldn’t expect that given your life’s work).
After grasping Ben’s point (are Laramie & small towns unfairly painted as bigoted), I was reminded what Obama later said about those in similar economically-gutted small towns positing “they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Then later, in 2015 Hillary Clinton simply referred to these people as ‘deplorables’. Is it hyperbole to bring in Biden and his cry that MAGA is a threat to democracy (knowing many MAGA voters are rural?)
Did the Matthew Shepard anti-gay narrative feed/start this ‘dehumanization’ of rural Americans? Maybe it’s been there all along and the Shepard murder and framing provided further illustration (useful to those interested in division) in the long running Urban v. Rural divide and conquer, movie. I couldn’t help but see a ‘through line’ to paint rural as backward and less-than. Certainly the Laramie Project did that. Divisions are useful to politicians of all stripes.
I was not born in a big city. I had no recollection of where the Shepard story happened other than being in the USA. There have been homophobic murders of gay men in big cities, even one serial killer in my city in the 70’s 80’s. At the time, the police neglected these murders because they were gay men. The work of activists changed that, the police admitted their wrong doings and have greatly improved since and been an ally of the gay community. There is also a man who shot 14 young women in the head at the engineering school of Montreal because they were women. He wrote a manifesto. Misogynistic behavior does not belong to rural areas. Sadly, these terrible events happen everywhere and more chances they will happen in big cities cause we are way more populated. The Shepard story might have created an unjustified fear of middle America for some. In my view, probably to the ones who have never been victims of true discrimination and aggressive homophobic behavior … the young “queers” which many are not even gay. They often look like young people who need a cause, something to rebel from, something to make them look different. Innocent do gooders believe them cause they want to be nice. A form of ignorance I guess. But It is probable that there is more homophobia and misunderstanding about gay people in small rural areas which are not as exposed to gay people as big cities. but this is really changing, I witnessed it traveling a lot in the usa. That said, i believe that the rural-urban divide has been in the making way before these events, before gay rights. I do believe that part of it is to blame on religion - greedy preachers scaring people in rural areas - and anti workers rights republicans. The book What’s the matter with Kansas presents a pretty good historical perspective of this. The poverty and ignorance outside the cities is staggering in the USA. There is ignorance in the cities as well (or just screwed knowledge) but the ignorance of the world, the fear of the other is definitely present in rural areas not to mention the bad bad health of its residents. I don’t think that the cry that maga is a threat to democracy has to do with rural. There are plenty of ultra wealthy city assholes that are maga, including Donald Trump.
God help you!
Jeffrey Dahmer, a gay psychopath, killed more men than anyone as a function of his own gay lifestyle. Many of those men he met at "bathhouses" and were happy to go back to a stranger's apartment. In the late 80s and early 90s AIDS was either misunderstood and / or was lacking in information and knowledge generally leading to the police stepping back and Dahmer's unstoppable psychopathy. I watched the series created by Ian Brennan (a friend's son) and I grew up not far from Milwaukee but wasn't living in the state at the time. Neither Dahmer nor his victims met at church.
It's so easy to throw people into categories to suit your argument. It's also ignorant and downright asinine. As always, let's blame those who practice a belief in God. So, once again, God help you.
Good to know that the real problem in America is people who go to church. After our church feeds the hungry, supports refugees, and works with moms newly out of prison among other things -- we're just basic haters at heart.
That is exactly what I wrote Marcia….. that the problem are people who go to church. Why don’t you act in good faith? reread what I wrote or simply be honest about it like that good virtue your God teaches you.
"...I do believe that part of it is to blame on religion - greedy preachers scaring people in rural areas..."
It's difficult - for me, at least - to read long posts that don't have paragraphs. So, I don't read them.
Perfect is a far, far cry from epistemically and morally corrupt...but you do you.
Is there an important moral difference between not caring what the truth is, and not caring if your people lie?
We are supposed to hate Trump because we are told “he is a liar”, but when you ask people making this accusation to give ONE example they cant. They either link a long list of lies told by the Press ABOUT Trump, or shut up.
Even Snopes recently admitted, after some 8 years, that Trumo never called Nazis “very fine people”. They knew that 8 years and ago, but only admitted it now.
If you are a good person you tell the truth and RIGHTLY mistrust proven liars. Anyone who will lie once will lie twice.
There is that famous Solhenitsyn quote to the effect that they lied, we knew they were lying, and they knew we knew they were lying, but they did it anyway. I think this is something like that.
Somehow--and I am seeing this on this thread TODAY--even if these people know their leaders are lying, as long as it is a congenial lie, they are fine with it. It makes them feel better.
It's a mental illness I don't really understand. However,, I seem to have all the defects in myself that I see in everyone else, so I will introspect on it a while. It's certainly very foreign to my own patterns of thought and behavior, and obviously inimical to an honest and functional society, but it is there, so we need to try and understand it.
Your party and its voters have betrayed you.
Never let an opportunity to further the narrative go to waste, truth be damned…the truth ALWAYS matters