I like Makary a lot and think his main points are correct. But: He elides personal interest in the avoidance of transmission as opposed to personal risk, as well as "risks" other than one's own health qua health (eg significant inconveniences), overstates the efficacy of molnupiravir because the podcast is a couple of weeks old (not a biggie given Paxlovid looks better), understates the likelihood of contact with high-risk individuals (as if the elderly or those with comorbidities or the immunosuppressed were a very small percentage of the population -- they're not), and (therefore) minimizes the cost of asking the latter to segregate themselves. I think Bari could have explored some of these issues and gotten worthwhile answers. I certainly would have liked to hear Makary dilate on these nuances.
This all amounts to two cents. Keep up the good work -- your podcasts are phenomenal.
Helpful interview. I specifically worry about perpetual masking in schools and the impact this will have on social and speech development. If teachers wish to mask, so be it, but I do wonder what the catalyst will be to lift the iron curtain (in Ontario) with masking on kids at school.
By far and away, the best article have read/listened to regarding covid. Bari and Marty put the Common Sense in this disease. In my over simplified opinion, "If you are going to get Covid, you're going to get Covid whether you know it or not.". God made us in His/Her image. Not an exact replica. We are all different free to make choices all our lives. But, there's a gene here or a gene there that's different than anyone else and our susceptibility to the disease depends on these differences. My wife's boss spent two days in the hospital this week with heart and lung problems. Drs.weren't sure what was wrong, but she was diagnosed with post-covid after effects. She hadn't had Covid that she knew of. I live in Florida. We have lived free for the past year and a half. Lee county has five major hospitals. In August, we came within 1% of filling every bed, but we continued to live free. Today we are down over 95% below our August high. With the monoclonals and other therapeutics we got through it. Deaths seemed high. The average age of death was over 75. Vaccinateds made up 20% of the patients, but wasn't that expected? No mandates. Schools in session. Some places wanted masks. I was glad to comply. I just don't believe that quarantenes, masks, social distancing or even vaccinations are going to make the difference in our Covid future. Oh, vaccinations are going to fight the attack on our bodies and greatly lesson the affect the virus has as it passes by our bodies. But, it's in the air and that little gene here or there is what's going to make the difference. God Bless you all and thank you, thank you, thank you, Bari for a magnificent interview.
One thing that bugs me about this article is your rather vague reference to Dr. Makary as a Johns Hopkins professor and author of many scientific articles, without telling us what, in particular, he is a professor of, or what subjects his articles have covered. This is relevant information that you should have disclosed. In fact, his specialty is surgery, not virology or epidemiology or even infectious disease in general. Much of what he says seems sensible, but this really isn't his area of expertise.
It's great to hear another point of view on this topic and agree with the risk/reards and missteps by the Federal government, but I have some questions -
(1) how do you measure immunity? How would I know that I'm immune to covid without an accurate antibody test? If one size doesn't fit all, as the doctor said, then how can we guarantee that my immunity level = everyone else's? And what about new variants?
(2) How can you explain that covid mortality is mainly among people with certain health conditions when you had an extraordinary surge in India this year, a country with a younger average age than the US and lower rates of obesity, etc.? According to what I've read and heard first-hand from friends and colleagues, many of the people who perished lived on crowded conditions without access to sufficient medical care whereas those with more means were able to gain access to the vaccine or lived in states with more covid-related restrictions.
(3) Dr. Makary claimed in February 2021 that we should be at herd immunity by April. As science isn't exact and he wouldn't have a crystal ball, the fact that he made this claim with such a strong degree of fervency causes me to question his reliability.
I would appreciate it if Dr. Makary or someone could provide specific information on the 16 studies, especially the Israeli study, showing the relative value of natural immunity over vaccinated immunity. Also, the two shoddy studies from the CDC. My wife and I had a lot of push-back on this at our T-Day dinner, which conformed in all respects to Bari's description in her first paragraph here. We held our own, but I would have liked to have had actual specifics to refer to.
People seem to be forgetting that this so-called "vaccine" (which does not actually provide immunity - does not prevent infection or transmission) is EXPERIMENTAL. The long-term effects are still not known, though many of the short-term effects ARE known (but are vastly under-reported). Take a look at the assortment of adverse effects here:
By the way, "VAERS is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System put in place in 1990. It is a voluntary reporting system that has been estimated to account for only 1% ( see the Lazarus Report) of vaccine injuries." Here's the link to that report: https://openvaers.com/images/r18hs017045-lazarus-final-report-20116.pdf.
Why do we not have accurate data with the real numbers?
In the aftermath of the atrocities of the Holocaust, the Nuremberg Code was drawn up to establish ethical guidelines for medical experimentation. Here's more info:
This Covid "vaccine" program is a massive experiment in which each recipient is essentially a lab rat. Note the first point in the Nuremberg Code - that of Informed Consent:
"1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.
This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.
The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity."
Here's my point: how many of those who took the Covid shots were fully informed of potential cardio-vascular risks, neurological risks, potential for Antibody-dependent Enhancement (ADE), or any other of the myriad side effects? Some of us thought to do more research than others.
So before you dismiss the "unvaccinated" as knuckle-dragging, ignorant, and selfish, or “some fool (who) decided to be afraid of vaccines”, or people who “deserve scorn and mockery”(from posts below), consider these possibilities:
1. The Covid shots will NEVER lead society to herd immunity, and are possibly preventing it.
2. For those who have had Covid and recovered, the shots may be completely unnecessary, if not potentially dangerous.
3. For many people (especially people like myself with pre-existing heart conditions), the shot could cause known serious adverse and irreversible effects. Yet, many believe they have the right to mandate me to play Russian Roulette with my life, which is completely unjustified from a scientific standpoint, much less an ethical standpoint (back to informed consent).
4. I cannot pass Covid on to you if I do not have Covid. If I’ve already had Covid and recovered, then those chances are slim to none.
5. You are free to take the shots if you decide that is the best option for you. I SHOULD be free to decide that I will not submit to an experimental intervention that could cause me more harm than benefit (including negligible benefit to those around me since mass vaccination is not preventing the spread of the virus).
Bari, I like your interview questions to Prof. Makary. But he is an oncology surgeon, not an immunologist or infectious disease specialist. Would love it if you could also interview someone like that.
Lots of posts about the vaccine. I was struck by how close we are to the treatments being approved. This is really a nationwide game-changer. When the health-care system can prescribe a drug you pick up (or have delivered) from your pharmacy and you recover at home, we are back to normal. From a public health standpoint, Covid will be like the flu. I agree with Dr Makary that the restrictions need to fall as fast as they were imposed.
Dr. Makary has been my go to throughout Covid. When my kids had to get the jab for college, we waited longer in between the first and second per his sage advice. And when he said there was no reason to pull the J&J, I decided it was ok for me to finally dive in (and spouse followed). What a breath of fresh air for a doc to actually review and report on studies, apply common sense to the the otherwise chaotic information disseminated and to question Fauci! Makary has been solid over the last 2 years.
You didn't bother asking the doctor why there are more vaccinated than unvaccinated people dying in the UK (which has medical records and data that puts the US to shame). Here in Oregon, buried deep in the Health Authority's web site, one learns that, recently, 27% of people hospitalized with Covid symptoms were fully vaccinated.
I'm seeing similar data in other states. It's hard to figure out because we don't know the full set of medical conditions presented by the 27%. The vaccine isn't a complete barrier to Covid. In some people, it just won't provide enough protection. As more and more people have been vaccinated, especially with the early focus on the most vulnerable, it's reasonable to expect that the protection is diminishing for this crowd. They will get sick, show up at the hospital, they might have Covid, and they will be classified as Covid Vaccinated. All true facts, but missing important details that would help us assess our own personal risks.
The takeaway from the discussion flowing from this article? In the large, the cure—lockdowns and closures, mask and vaccine mandate, etc.—has proved to be worse than the disease. Its long-term effects, political, social, economic and even medical, will I am convinced be much worse than the pandemic itself. This has been a long-running morality play with a bunch of dim-bulb bureaucrats and plain idiots in the leading roles, and I give it two thumbs down.
I moved to Florida on Oct 1. I have put on a mask ONCE since being here and that was when I went to a lab to get my antibodies tested. You can leave the mask at home Marty.
Lose the masks? Not if you live in Santa Cruz county California, which has instituted an indoor mask mandate even in private homes unless you are in that home by yourself or with other people who reside in the home. Violators may be subject to arrest. This means that if you are having family over for Thanksgiving and they don't live in your home, everyone must wear a mask. I don't think the mandate discussed whether you can lift the mask up to take a bite of turkey or a sip of beer.
And they'll keep reelecting whatever local clowns are responsible for that. I am to the absolute zero Fs given stage with regard to blue state & blue city policies. That evil goblin governor of New York forcing masks on two year olds in daycare for 8 hours a day? Feel bad for the kids but you dipshits put her in office. Etc.
I like Makary a lot and think his main points are correct. But: He elides personal interest in the avoidance of transmission as opposed to personal risk, as well as "risks" other than one's own health qua health (eg significant inconveniences), overstates the efficacy of molnupiravir because the podcast is a couple of weeks old (not a biggie given Paxlovid looks better), understates the likelihood of contact with high-risk individuals (as if the elderly or those with comorbidities or the immunosuppressed were a very small percentage of the population -- they're not), and (therefore) minimizes the cost of asking the latter to segregate themselves. I think Bari could have explored some of these issues and gotten worthwhile answers. I certainly would have liked to hear Makary dilate on these nuances.
This all amounts to two cents. Keep up the good work -- your podcasts are phenomenal.
Helpful interview. I specifically worry about perpetual masking in schools and the impact this will have on social and speech development. If teachers wish to mask, so be it, but I do wonder what the catalyst will be to lift the iron curtain (in Ontario) with masking on kids at school.
By far and away, the best article have read/listened to regarding covid. Bari and Marty put the Common Sense in this disease. In my over simplified opinion, "If you are going to get Covid, you're going to get Covid whether you know it or not.". God made us in His/Her image. Not an exact replica. We are all different free to make choices all our lives. But, there's a gene here or a gene there that's different than anyone else and our susceptibility to the disease depends on these differences. My wife's boss spent two days in the hospital this week with heart and lung problems. Drs.weren't sure what was wrong, but she was diagnosed with post-covid after effects. She hadn't had Covid that she knew of. I live in Florida. We have lived free for the past year and a half. Lee county has five major hospitals. In August, we came within 1% of filling every bed, but we continued to live free. Today we are down over 95% below our August high. With the monoclonals and other therapeutics we got through it. Deaths seemed high. The average age of death was over 75. Vaccinateds made up 20% of the patients, but wasn't that expected? No mandates. Schools in session. Some places wanted masks. I was glad to comply. I just don't believe that quarantenes, masks, social distancing or even vaccinations are going to make the difference in our Covid future. Oh, vaccinations are going to fight the attack on our bodies and greatly lesson the affect the virus has as it passes by our bodies. But, it's in the air and that little gene here or there is what's going to make the difference. God Bless you all and thank you, thank you, thank you, Bari for a magnificent interview.
One thing that bugs me about this article is your rather vague reference to Dr. Makary as a Johns Hopkins professor and author of many scientific articles, without telling us what, in particular, he is a professor of, or what subjects his articles have covered. This is relevant information that you should have disclosed. In fact, his specialty is surgery, not virology or epidemiology or even infectious disease in general. Much of what he says seems sensible, but this really isn't his area of expertise.
It's great to hear another point of view on this topic and agree with the risk/reards and missteps by the Federal government, but I have some questions -
(1) how do you measure immunity? How would I know that I'm immune to covid without an accurate antibody test? If one size doesn't fit all, as the doctor said, then how can we guarantee that my immunity level = everyone else's? And what about new variants?
(2) How can you explain that covid mortality is mainly among people with certain health conditions when you had an extraordinary surge in India this year, a country with a younger average age than the US and lower rates of obesity, etc.? According to what I've read and heard first-hand from friends and colleagues, many of the people who perished lived on crowded conditions without access to sufficient medical care whereas those with more means were able to gain access to the vaccine or lived in states with more covid-related restrictions.
(3) Dr. Makary claimed in February 2021 that we should be at herd immunity by April. As science isn't exact and he wouldn't have a crystal ball, the fact that he made this claim with such a strong degree of fervency causes me to question his reliability.
I would appreciate it if Dr. Makary or someone could provide specific information on the 16 studies, especially the Israeli study, showing the relative value of natural immunity over vaccinated immunity. Also, the two shoddy studies from the CDC. My wife and I had a lot of push-back on this at our T-Day dinner, which conformed in all respects to Bari's description in her first paragraph here. We held our own, but I would have liked to have had actual specifics to refer to.
Just my opinion, but this COVID ‘pandemic’ won’t end until everyone gets COVID.
People seem to be forgetting that this so-called "vaccine" (which does not actually provide immunity - does not prevent infection or transmission) is EXPERIMENTAL. The long-term effects are still not known, though many of the short-term effects ARE known (but are vastly under-reported). Take a look at the assortment of adverse effects here:
https://openvaers.com/covid-data.
By the way, "VAERS is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System put in place in 1990. It is a voluntary reporting system that has been estimated to account for only 1% ( see the Lazarus Report) of vaccine injuries." Here's the link to that report: https://openvaers.com/images/r18hs017045-lazarus-final-report-20116.pdf.
Why do we not have accurate data with the real numbers?
In the aftermath of the atrocities of the Holocaust, the Nuremberg Code was drawn up to establish ethical guidelines for medical experimentation. Here's more info:
https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/special-focus/doctors-trial/nuremberg-code
This Covid "vaccine" program is a massive experiment in which each recipient is essentially a lab rat. Note the first point in the Nuremberg Code - that of Informed Consent:
"1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.
This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.
The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity."
Here's my point: how many of those who took the Covid shots were fully informed of potential cardio-vascular risks, neurological risks, potential for Antibody-dependent Enhancement (ADE), or any other of the myriad side effects? Some of us thought to do more research than others.
So before you dismiss the "unvaccinated" as knuckle-dragging, ignorant, and selfish, or “some fool (who) decided to be afraid of vaccines”, or people who “deserve scorn and mockery”(from posts below), consider these possibilities:
1. The Covid shots will NEVER lead society to herd immunity, and are possibly preventing it.
2. For those who have had Covid and recovered, the shots may be completely unnecessary, if not potentially dangerous.
3. For many people (especially people like myself with pre-existing heart conditions), the shot could cause known serious adverse and irreversible effects. Yet, many believe they have the right to mandate me to play Russian Roulette with my life, which is completely unjustified from a scientific standpoint, much less an ethical standpoint (back to informed consent).
4. I cannot pass Covid on to you if I do not have Covid. If I’ve already had Covid and recovered, then those chances are slim to none.
5. You are free to take the shots if you decide that is the best option for you. I SHOULD be free to decide that I will not submit to an experimental intervention that could cause me more harm than benefit (including negligible benefit to those around me since mass vaccination is not preventing the spread of the virus).
Happy Thanksgiving!!!
Bari, I like your interview questions to Prof. Makary. But he is an oncology surgeon, not an immunologist or infectious disease specialist. Would love it if you could also interview someone like that.
Lots of posts about the vaccine. I was struck by how close we are to the treatments being approved. This is really a nationwide game-changer. When the health-care system can prescribe a drug you pick up (or have delivered) from your pharmacy and you recover at home, we are back to normal. From a public health standpoint, Covid will be like the flu. I agree with Dr Makary that the restrictions need to fall as fast as they were imposed.
Dr. Makary has been my go to throughout Covid. When my kids had to get the jab for college, we waited longer in between the first and second per his sage advice. And when he said there was no reason to pull the J&J, I decided it was ok for me to finally dive in (and spouse followed). What a breath of fresh air for a doc to actually review and report on studies, apply common sense to the the otherwise chaotic information disseminated and to question Fauci! Makary has been solid over the last 2 years.
His advice sounds right on. Common sense based on available data. Why can’t our leaders do this.
You didn't bother asking the doctor why there are more vaccinated than unvaccinated people dying in the UK (which has medical records and data that puts the US to shame). Here in Oregon, buried deep in the Health Authority's web site, one learns that, recently, 27% of people hospitalized with Covid symptoms were fully vaccinated.
Well...?
I'm seeing similar data in other states. It's hard to figure out because we don't know the full set of medical conditions presented by the 27%. The vaccine isn't a complete barrier to Covid. In some people, it just won't provide enough protection. As more and more people have been vaccinated, especially with the early focus on the most vulnerable, it's reasonable to expect that the protection is diminishing for this crowd. They will get sick, show up at the hospital, they might have Covid, and they will be classified as Covid Vaccinated. All true facts, but missing important details that would help us assess our own personal risks.
The takeaway from the discussion flowing from this article? In the large, the cure—lockdowns and closures, mask and vaccine mandate, etc.—has proved to be worse than the disease. Its long-term effects, political, social, economic and even medical, will I am convinced be much worse than the pandemic itself. This has been a long-running morality play with a bunch of dim-bulb bureaucrats and plain idiots in the leading roles, and I give it two thumbs down.
I moved to Florida on Oct 1. I have put on a mask ONCE since being here and that was when I went to a lab to get my antibodies tested. You can leave the mask at home Marty.
Lose the masks? Not if you live in Santa Cruz county California, which has instituted an indoor mask mandate even in private homes unless you are in that home by yourself or with other people who reside in the home. Violators may be subject to arrest. This means that if you are having family over for Thanksgiving and they don't live in your home, everyone must wear a mask. I don't think the mandate discussed whether you can lift the mask up to take a bite of turkey or a sip of beer.
And they'll keep reelecting whatever local clowns are responsible for that. I am to the absolute zero Fs given stage with regard to blue state & blue city policies. That evil goblin governor of New York forcing masks on two year olds in daycare for 8 hours a day? Feel bad for the kids but you dipshits put her in office. Etc.