This guy 99% needs to be deported. I’m more concerned about the rights of Rumeysa Ozturk, the tufts student whose arrest seems only to stem from an opinion piece she wrote for the school paper, regarding the school’s policies. Unless they have evidence of something more nefarious, she seems to have been targeted for very legal speech. We’ve likely embarked on the slippery slope.
I listened to this and thought it was good, except I was completely flabbergasted by the failure to grasp the underlying threat that is really the issue. When Bari and the panel discussed a hypothetical world where AOC is president and they are looking to deport a pro-Israel student, they expressed concern that the Khalil precedent could support that deportation, which needs to be taken into account in evaluating how to treat this case.
But fundamentally, if we are living in a world where the government is looking to deport people who support Israel’s right to exist, then free speech is going to be the least of the problem for American Jews. That is a world where Jews will not be safe in America, regardless of what they can or can’t say.
"Fighting for the total eradication of Western Civilization" and providing material support to a terrorist organization? Why is anyone supporting this guy?
Great debate Bari. Your question on why now about why the previous administration did not prosecute this group and others like them was spit on. Thank you.
Eugene is a moron. He keeps arguing it is only free speech when it’s clearly not just vague support. The guy took serious actions! He just won’t accept that and keeps saying the same stupid thing over and over. I guess they needed a progressive in there to not have a shred of nuance.
Why is there a debate about removing a non-citizen from our country who is “fighting for the total eradication of Western civilization," while leveraging our freedoms and resources to do so? Arguing "free speech" is absurd. It's like saying, "I believe so strongly in non-violence, I will not fire the gun in my hand at the murderer about to kill my child."
I don’t think thats the debate. The debate is about the fact that the Trump Administration wanted to “disappear” him like the “Venezuelans.” He is entitled to a hearing and a trial. If a judge or jury finds him guilty, toss his ass.
Eugene et al: the government has an incentive to use non-criminal reasons to deport because they can claim to be able to use a summary process to deport in those cases... a criminal prosecution would take much, much longer and use many more resources. So no matter how strong the criminal case may be the incentive to attempt the quicker route first would exist.
Khalil is not a citizen and whatever his free speech rights, they don’t immunize him from the consequences of his activities under the immigration laws, which allegedly include putting speech into action in support of a Foreign Terrorist Organization.
Nor does the 1st Amendment protect him from lying on his applications for a visa or Green Card, if that’s what he’s found to have done.
Again, I don’t think any reasonable person thinks this guy is an angel. As a green card holder though, he has a right to due process, which, save for the free press outing of his detention, would have been denied. He deserves a trial and investigation, and so do we the people who are interested in learning if he has any co-conspirators.
Hi. so I listened to the Podcast with great intensity. I had a discussion with friends at dinner regarding Mahmoud Khalil. It is a difficult topic to have a conversation about because, I believe, people are confusing Khalils right to DUE PROCESS, with whether or not he is guilty of a crime. I think your podcast is wrong when it says that people on the left think this is a free speech issue vs an immigration issue. Rather, I think people on Left believe he is entitled to due process, whereas people on the Right, do not. I believe your discussion agrees with the"Leftist" argument in favor of due process, as due process is pre-supposed when one is actually discussing the "CASE" that would be presented before a judge, immigration or criminal. The only reason that Khalil is getting DUE PROCESS is because the PRESS let everyone know that he was being "disappeared." Otherwise, the government would have had him on a plane to El Salvador, along with the "Venezuelans." Personally, though I consider myself on the Left, I hope the guy is found guilty of a crime and he is deported. However, I am more concerned with the fact that the intention was to deprive him of due process. Can you please have the panelists comment on this?
I am unsure how Khalil was in danger of not having due process. He was arrested (and, yes, ICE can do so without criminal charges) on a Saturday, had his hearing date set on that Monday for that Wednesday. Whether or not his hearings wouldn't have happened unless the media stepped in is speculation.
They were going to deport him without due process. The Department of Homeland Security stated that Khalil’s arrest was conducted “in support of President Trump’s executive orders prohibiting anti-Semitism,” alleging his activities were aligned with Hamas, a designated terrorist organization . However, Khalil’s legal team contends that his detention violates his First Amendment and Due Process rights, asserting that he is being targeted for his political activism . A federal judge temporarily blocked his deportation
This just illustrates that the courts are working, so Khalil is getting his day in court. His rights ultimately were not violated and he, according to the legal experts, is in a bit of a gray area. His lawyers arguements and allegations are exactly that, arguments and allegations. None of us have all of the information.
Please excuse my shifting to another point. Due process has been fraying for years, because our immigration system is broken and overburdened, letting in lowlifes like Khalil who have means and an agenda, deporting those who don't but desperately want to be here. And who made even talking about immigration 'racist', the left. So, it's just really hard for me to not roll my eyes when they pick a Jihadi of all people, as their figurehead, especially after yearw of suppressing speech they don't like.
I will preface my remarks by saying that Khalil is abhorrent, and the country would be better off without him here. However...
"His rights ultimately were not violated..."
Having armed government agents arrest you and take you to prison or the equivalent for any length of time is a massive violation of rights. For example, if the local police or the FBI were to come and arrest you or me, put us in jail for a while, and then say "oopsies" and let us go, it's hard to believe that constitutes "no violation" of rights. There were strong arguments that "stop and frisk" was a violation of rights, and that's a far cry from jail (and part of the basis for allowing it was that the intrusion was limited and short).
If the government arrested someone with lack of good faith, for example, because the Mayor wanted to punish someone for a previous slight, I'm sure that one would win a lawsuit over the incident.
As Joe pointed out, I thought that the podcast discussion had a gigantic lacuna in its failure to discuss the Due Process issues at all. The government claims are credible. Credible government claims are not dispositive in any area of law. Everyone has a right to show that the government was wrong in some impartial adjudicatory proceeding. It is certainly arguable that aliens have lesser due process rights, but it would be morally wrong for aliens (or any other class) to have *no* due process rights whatsoever. Even the Old Testament says that aliens have substantial rights! (e.g., Lev 19:34, Lev 24:22, and many others)
This guy is horrible, and deporting him would be best for the country. However, they also just arrested that Turkish student who was guilty only of speech, and she should be the poster child for *everyone* to recall Niemöller's poem "First they came".
Listen, I agree. The guy is a scumbag and they should ship his ass out of the country. But we cannot ignore this administrations repeated steps to skirt the Constitution! First it will be Khalil, next it will be someone else. That is the slippery slope. And it is exactly what the Nazis did when they first took power.
I am also wary of the administration's attempts to undermine the constitution, but my point is is that Trump is not unique in this, that the left and the right are silent when it's their guy, outraged when it's not.
FDR signed over 3700 executive orders, one of which included the internment of 120,000 Japanese Americans. Was he a nazi? As Americans, we need to start making honest, and at times painful, assessment that even the Presidents I may admire, and not just the ones I personally do not like (which includes Trump), have contributed to the crossroads we may be at today.
Hannah. I think its a brilliant observation to compare the FDR internments with Trumps policies today.
In fact, with your permission, I would like to dive deeper into it and write a paper about it.
I surmise that factors such as cultural and technology differences between the eras, media biases, and war time vs peace time issues will all be relevant. Also, I bet there is case law on the topic that strengthened Due Process rights as a direct result of theJapanese camps. It’s a profoundly interesting topic. This is what I truly love about this platform. I get so much out of listening to differing opinions and points of views. Thank you!
agree on due process, but find it hilarious that's the position that the left takes when they throw the concept into the wind flippantly on everything else ("me too" - duke rape case - George Floyd - etc.)
Ah. Yes. I think, in general I agree with you. I like to look at each case on its merits. I am not a generalist and I don’t like stereotyping. I just know that I often find myself to be more liberal with social issues and more conservative with fiscal issues. And, I try to make the distinction between inexperienced, yet passionate, college students, and real terrorist sympathizers, of which I believe Khalil is!
After spending an hour listening to this broadcast, when I finished, I wanted to feel informed, surprised, and glad I had taken time to listen to the entire broadcast. It was all the above, as many people and I did when this case first hit the airwaves. You only got sound bites and scattered and disparate bits. And as it has grown over the years, you did not know who to trust or what to believe. This felt fulfilling, so now I can listen for the outcome and see how it was decided with much more knowledge under my belt. Thanks Bari.
Thank you Barri. It has been well done again.
This guy 99% needs to be deported. I’m more concerned about the rights of Rumeysa Ozturk, the tufts student whose arrest seems only to stem from an opinion piece she wrote for the school paper, regarding the school’s policies. Unless they have evidence of something more nefarious, she seems to have been targeted for very legal speech. We’ve likely embarked on the slippery slope.
I listened to this and thought it was good, except I was completely flabbergasted by the failure to grasp the underlying threat that is really the issue. When Bari and the panel discussed a hypothetical world where AOC is president and they are looking to deport a pro-Israel student, they expressed concern that the Khalil precedent could support that deportation, which needs to be taken into account in evaluating how to treat this case.
But fundamentally, if we are living in a world where the government is looking to deport people who support Israel’s right to exist, then free speech is going to be the least of the problem for American Jews. That is a world where Jews will not be safe in America, regardless of what they can or can’t say.
"Fighting for the total eradication of Western Civilization" and providing material support to a terrorist organization? Why is anyone supporting this guy?
Great debate Bari. Your question on why now about why the previous administration did not prosecute this group and others like them was spit on. Thank you.
"Hamas operatives on campus..." that says it all. Now be sure to look at Missourians for Palestine as well.
Does anyone remember Merrick Garland telling the FBI to investigate parents who spoke out at school board meetings as domestic terrorists?
Eugene is a moron. He keeps arguing it is only free speech when it’s clearly not just vague support. The guy took serious actions! He just won’t accept that and keeps saying the same stupid thing over and over. I guess they needed a progressive in there to not have a shred of nuance.
Why is there a debate about removing a non-citizen from our country who is “fighting for the total eradication of Western civilization," while leveraging our freedoms and resources to do so? Arguing "free speech" is absurd. It's like saying, "I believe so strongly in non-violence, I will not fire the gun in my hand at the murderer about to kill my child."
I don’t think thats the debate. The debate is about the fact that the Trump Administration wanted to “disappear” him like the “Venezuelans.” He is entitled to a hearing and a trial. If a judge or jury finds him guilty, toss his ass.
One more comment. Please read this from my sub.
https://open.substack.com/pub/joe713/p/due-process-rights-of-non-citizens?r=ruin2&utm_medium=ios
Eugene et al: the government has an incentive to use non-criminal reasons to deport because they can claim to be able to use a summary process to deport in those cases... a criminal prosecution would take much, much longer and use many more resources. So no matter how strong the criminal case may be the incentive to attempt the quicker route first would exist.
"The Constitution is not a suicide pact."
But it is the LAW
Khalil is not a citizen and whatever his free speech rights, they don’t immunize him from the consequences of his activities under the immigration laws, which allegedly include putting speech into action in support of a Foreign Terrorist Organization.
Nor does the 1st Amendment protect him from lying on his applications for a visa or Green Card, if that’s what he’s found to have done.
Again, I don’t think any reasonable person thinks this guy is an angel. As a green card holder though, he has a right to due process, which, save for the free press outing of his detention, would have been denied. He deserves a trial and investigation, and so do we the people who are interested in learning if he has any co-conspirators.
-green card holder, not citizen
-supports and is part of terrorist groups who want to "abolish the west"
legally? I'll listen to the podcast and defer to the experts. Morally? Deport his ass.
Hi. so I listened to the Podcast with great intensity. I had a discussion with friends at dinner regarding Mahmoud Khalil. It is a difficult topic to have a conversation about because, I believe, people are confusing Khalils right to DUE PROCESS, with whether or not he is guilty of a crime. I think your podcast is wrong when it says that people on the left think this is a free speech issue vs an immigration issue. Rather, I think people on Left believe he is entitled to due process, whereas people on the Right, do not. I believe your discussion agrees with the"Leftist" argument in favor of due process, as due process is pre-supposed when one is actually discussing the "CASE" that would be presented before a judge, immigration or criminal. The only reason that Khalil is getting DUE PROCESS is because the PRESS let everyone know that he was being "disappeared." Otherwise, the government would have had him on a plane to El Salvador, along with the "Venezuelans." Personally, though I consider myself on the Left, I hope the guy is found guilty of a crime and he is deported. However, I am more concerned with the fact that the intention was to deprive him of due process. Can you please have the panelists comment on this?
I am unsure how Khalil was in danger of not having due process. He was arrested (and, yes, ICE can do so without criminal charges) on a Saturday, had his hearing date set on that Monday for that Wednesday. Whether or not his hearings wouldn't have happened unless the media stepped in is speculation.
https://joe713.substack.com/p/due-process-rights-of-non-citizens?r=ruin2
They were going to deport him without due process. The Department of Homeland Security stated that Khalil’s arrest was conducted “in support of President Trump’s executive orders prohibiting anti-Semitism,” alleging his activities were aligned with Hamas, a designated terrorist organization . However, Khalil’s legal team contends that his detention violates his First Amendment and Due Process rights, asserting that he is being targeted for his political activism . A federal judge temporarily blocked his deportation
This just illustrates that the courts are working, so Khalil is getting his day in court. His rights ultimately were not violated and he, according to the legal experts, is in a bit of a gray area. His lawyers arguements and allegations are exactly that, arguments and allegations. None of us have all of the information.
Please excuse my shifting to another point. Due process has been fraying for years, because our immigration system is broken and overburdened, letting in lowlifes like Khalil who have means and an agenda, deporting those who don't but desperately want to be here. And who made even talking about immigration 'racist', the left. So, it's just really hard for me to not roll my eyes when they pick a Jihadi of all people, as their figurehead, especially after yearw of suppressing speech they don't like.
I will preface my remarks by saying that Khalil is abhorrent, and the country would be better off without him here. However...
"His rights ultimately were not violated..."
Having armed government agents arrest you and take you to prison or the equivalent for any length of time is a massive violation of rights. For example, if the local police or the FBI were to come and arrest you or me, put us in jail for a while, and then say "oopsies" and let us go, it's hard to believe that constitutes "no violation" of rights. There were strong arguments that "stop and frisk" was a violation of rights, and that's a far cry from jail (and part of the basis for allowing it was that the intrusion was limited and short).
If the government arrested someone with lack of good faith, for example, because the Mayor wanted to punish someone for a previous slight, I'm sure that one would win a lawsuit over the incident.
As Joe pointed out, I thought that the podcast discussion had a gigantic lacuna in its failure to discuss the Due Process issues at all. The government claims are credible. Credible government claims are not dispositive in any area of law. Everyone has a right to show that the government was wrong in some impartial adjudicatory proceeding. It is certainly arguable that aliens have lesser due process rights, but it would be morally wrong for aliens (or any other class) to have *no* due process rights whatsoever. Even the Old Testament says that aliens have substantial rights! (e.g., Lev 19:34, Lev 24:22, and many others)
This guy is horrible, and deporting him would be best for the country. However, they also just arrested that Turkish student who was guilty only of speech, and she should be the poster child for *everyone* to recall Niemöller's poem "First they came".
Listen, I agree. The guy is a scumbag and they should ship his ass out of the country. But we cannot ignore this administrations repeated steps to skirt the Constitution! First it will be Khalil, next it will be someone else. That is the slippery slope. And it is exactly what the Nazis did when they first took power.
I am also wary of the administration's attempts to undermine the constitution, but my point is is that Trump is not unique in this, that the left and the right are silent when it's their guy, outraged when it's not.
FDR signed over 3700 executive orders, one of which included the internment of 120,000 Japanese Americans. Was he a nazi? As Americans, we need to start making honest, and at times painful, assessment that even the Presidents I may admire, and not just the ones I personally do not like (which includes Trump), have contributed to the crossroads we may be at today.
Hannah. I think its a brilliant observation to compare the FDR internments with Trumps policies today.
In fact, with your permission, I would like to dive deeper into it and write a paper about it.
I surmise that factors such as cultural and technology differences between the eras, media biases, and war time vs peace time issues will all be relevant. Also, I bet there is case law on the topic that strengthened Due Process rights as a direct result of theJapanese camps. It’s a profoundly interesting topic. This is what I truly love about this platform. I get so much out of listening to differing opinions and points of views. Thank you!
agree on due process, but find it hilarious that's the position that the left takes when they throw the concept into the wind flippantly on everything else ("me too" - duke rape case - George Floyd - etc.)
Sorry. Not certain I follow you.
My point was the left often ignores the concept due process when it benefits them and jumps to “immediately guilty” conclusions.
Ah. Yes. I think, in general I agree with you. I like to look at each case on its merits. I am not a generalist and I don’t like stereotyping. I just know that I often find myself to be more liberal with social issues and more conservative with fiscal issues. And, I try to make the distinction between inexperienced, yet passionate, college students, and real terrorist sympathizers, of which I believe Khalil is!
After spending an hour listening to this broadcast, when I finished, I wanted to feel informed, surprised, and glad I had taken time to listen to the entire broadcast. It was all the above, as many people and I did when this case first hit the airwaves. You only got sound bites and scattered and disparate bits. And as it has grown over the years, you did not know who to trust or what to believe. This felt fulfilling, so now I can listen for the outcome and see how it was decided with much more knowledge under my belt. Thanks Bari.