No, but Israel isn't beyond reproach either. All the whataboutism in the world aside, you can't carpet bomb civilians for months and refuse to permit aid to those civilians and not expect recourse. It's sad that so many otherwise intelligent people are so stuck in their ideological camp.
No, but Israel isn't beyond reproach either. All the whataboutism in the world aside, you can't carpet bomb civilians for months and refuse to permit aid to those civilians and not expect recourse. It's sad that so many otherwise intelligent people are so stuck in their ideological camp.
Lance, while I appreciate your sense of empathy, you have fallen prey to the opinionated, ideological media. Israel made many attempts to get civilians to leave contested areas. ItтАЩs too bad Egypt prevented them from entering. Hamas also prevented it human shields from leaving.
It is documented that Israel allowed many shipments of food daily, enough for a per capita consumption of 3000 calories per day. Hamas sequestered the food.
Hamas has been thoroughly discredited for producing bogus civilian casualty numbers.
As for carpet bombing, that ended in Vietnam. TodayтАЩs bombs are тАШsmartтАЩ and guided directly toward specific targets. Biden is now withholding additional guided bombs as well as the intelligence of target locations, pushing Israel toward that unwanted effort.
"Carpet bomb" is a catchphrase used by college tiktok activists who can't name the river or the sea. Be better than that here, it's not the Washington Post.
Seven months of actual carpet bombing and there'd be a quarter million dead in Gaza. There's tons of drone footage, comms transcripts, and infantry GoPro vid showing RPG-toting terrorists running into civvie-occupied infrastructure for shelter followed by the IDF breaking off an assault, or calling off artillery and close air support. Do you really think Hamas would do the same?
Civvie to terrorist killed ratio in Gaza is 2-1, basically the lowest in the recorded history of warfare that takes place within any urban environment, much less in an area nearly as densely populated as Tokyo and where the "civilians" (a loose term applied to a fanatical horde whom the world saw gleefully spitting and throwing rocks at bloodied hostages) are deliberately used as human shields by the literal death cult they elected to lead them.
I concisely point out why the term "carpet bomb" is intellectually, historically, and morally lazy. Your cherrypicked deflection is much of the the same, suited to twitter or Wapo users who engage on that level.
Instead of engaging with the points raised, you literally respond by equating me to "college tiktok activists" while lumping me to the "river to the sea" folks ... engaged in the very same whataboutism that I literally noted in the original comment ... and you call ME "intellectually, historically, and morally lazy"?
LOL - Seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here.
But that's how you entered this discussion. You're making an unfounded accusation and embellishing it with jargon you don't really seem to understand.
If you don't want to be lumped in with the Hamas Youth, maybe you should try not parroting the same propaganda.
I don't know what you expect Israel to do. Hamas Youth wants it to surrender, so they can murder the rest of the population. Hamas itself operates out of mosques and schools and shields its fighters with women and children. They're counting on ignorant antisemites around the world to protect them with those whataboutisms. It's working.
Want peace? We all do. All it will take is for Iran and its proxies to say "Israel has a right to exist." That's it. I know it would be a crushing disappointment to the UN and the Ivy League, but that's what this will take.
We're not talking about Nazi Germany. Nor are we talking about two (or more) countries going to war with one another.
In this case, we're talking about - effectively - a country going to war with a state in its own jurisdiction. It would be closer to the US bombing Oregon ... or Portland ... in the event that Antifa decided to get truly violent.
Granted, that's a bad comparison ... but the take home is that Israel's responsibilities for the civilian population of Gaza are far greater than when two independent nations go to war.
I'll see your comparison and raise you. If Seattle elected Antifa as their government the way Gaza did with Hamas, they'd be traitors, renegades, and insurrectionists just like the Confederacy, and deservedly be treated as such. Gaza should thank their prophet they're facing the IDF instead of Sherman's March to the Sea.
According to you, any terrorist group that uses human shields automatically wins. It is well known by all with eyes to see that Hamas deliberately built their infrastructure under heavily populated areas with folks like you in mind. So Israel is not allowed to defend itself by going after the terrorists who've promised to carry out more 10/7s?
If we'd followed your "ideological camp" in WW2, the Nazis would still rule western Europe. Japanese militarists would have their East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. If we'd followed you in the Civil War, blacks would still be enslaved in the Confederate States of America (the former southern U.S.). Your "ideological camp" is morally obtuse. That's what's sad.
LOL - if you have links to when I've said any of these things on ANY social media, please feel free to show me and I'll be happy to respond. As it stands, I have never said anything of the sort.
They are the logical consequence of what you've said just above. If Israel can't destroy Hamas' tunnel infrastructure, then Hamas survives to conduct more 10/7s. Bombing in civilian areas is an unfortunate necessity, since that's where Hamas is located. Will civilians die? Well, that happens in war. You're trying to hold Israel to a standard that nobody else has ever met.
As far as blocking all aid, Israel has allowed in over half a million tons of aid since 10/7. So there you're just lying outright.
As far as going through your posts, don't flatter yourself. You're just a morally obtuse liar. Or more likely, a troll.
"you can't carpet bomb civilians for months and refuse to permit aid to those civilians and not expect recourse. It's sad that so many otherwise intelligent people are so stuck in their ideological camp."
Are you REALLY REALLY sure you want to go with that?
Because someone is going to ask you for sources about carpet bombing and permitting aid.
On the subject of aid, guess who get most of that aid? (Hint) Its the guys with the guns.
"sources about carpet bombing and permitting aid."
I wasn't aware that these statements are controversial to anyone with two eyes and a brain. Refusal to accept these undeniable truths is right up there with Palestinian supporters who refuse to accept that Hamas slaughtered/raped civilians and took hostages.
I often wonder about something. If Gaza has approximately 300 miles of tunnels, why doesn't Hamas let the innocent women and children hide down there and come out and fight the IDF man to man?
They are The Shields. Hamas WANTS lots of civilian casualties. Understand there is very little difference between Hamas and Al-QaтАШida. They both come from the same source. Hassan al-Banna founding The Muslim Brotherhood in 1928.
A Good source for Laypersons is Lawrence Wright's "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11"
When someone makes a (controversial) statement like you did, I ask for sources. Why did you say The Israelis Carpet Bombing Gaza and not allowing aid in? Why did you say that, where did you get that? Reasonable questions. So far, No answer. Which leads me to think You don't have any ie making this up.
Except there is nothing controversial about it. Even Israel says as much.
If you want to have a serious conversation, then please do so. But don't be disingenuous. Simply disregarding the facts on the ground because it doesn't fit your simple us-vs-them narrative isn't serious.
Put another way: it would at least be reasonable to debate whether Israel has the right to kill 10's of thousands of civilians through heavy bombardment (which all sides agree they have done) and close off the borders to significant aide (which again, all sides agree they have done) ... and then debate the reasons thereof. But simply saying "no they didn't do what they even said they did" isn't serious.
"Israel Is Not Equivalent to Hamas"
No, but Israel isn't beyond reproach either. All the whataboutism in the world aside, you can't carpet bomb civilians for months and refuse to permit aid to those civilians and not expect recourse. It's sad that so many otherwise intelligent people are so stuck in their ideological camp.
Lance, while I appreciate your sense of empathy, you have fallen prey to the opinionated, ideological media. Israel made many attempts to get civilians to leave contested areas. ItтАЩs too bad Egypt prevented them from entering. Hamas also prevented it human shields from leaving.
It is documented that Israel allowed many shipments of food daily, enough for a per capita consumption of 3000 calories per day. Hamas sequestered the food.
Hamas has been thoroughly discredited for producing bogus civilian casualty numbers.
As for carpet bombing, that ended in Vietnam. TodayтАЩs bombs are тАШsmartтАЩ and guided directly toward specific targets. Biden is now withholding additional guided bombs as well as the intelligence of target locations, pushing Israel toward that unwanted effort.
https://biochem-food-nutrition.agri.huji.ac.il/sites/default/files/biochem-food-nutrition/files/preprint-nutritional-assessment-of-food-aid-delivered-to-gaza-via-israel-during-the-swords-of-iron-war.pdf
There's something seriously wrong with you. Why don't you want the war to end soon, with Hamas surrendering? That won't happen by being nice to them.
"Carpet bomb" is a catchphrase used by college tiktok activists who can't name the river or the sea. Be better than that here, it's not the Washington Post.
Seven months of actual carpet bombing and there'd be a quarter million dead in Gaza. There's tons of drone footage, comms transcripts, and infantry GoPro vid showing RPG-toting terrorists running into civvie-occupied infrastructure for shelter followed by the IDF breaking off an assault, or calling off artillery and close air support. Do you really think Hamas would do the same?
Civvie to terrorist killed ratio in Gaza is 2-1, basically the lowest in the recorded history of warfare that takes place within any urban environment, much less in an area nearly as densely populated as Tokyo and where the "civilians" (a loose term applied to a fanatical horde whom the world saw gleefully spitting and throwing rocks at bloodied hostages) are deliberately used as human shields by the literal death cult they elected to lead them.
""Carpet bomb" is a catchphrase used by college tiktok activists "
LOL - it's been A LOT of years since I've been in college. But thanks!
"Do you really think Hamas would do the same?"
Whataboutism: we're not talking about Hamas.
I concisely point out why the term "carpet bomb" is intellectually, historically, and morally lazy. Your cherrypicked deflection is much of the the same, suited to twitter or Wapo users who engage on that level.
Instead of engaging with the points raised, you literally respond by equating me to "college tiktok activists" while lumping me to the "river to the sea" folks ... engaged in the very same whataboutism that I literally noted in the original comment ... and you call ME "intellectually, historically, and morally lazy"?
LOL - Seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here.
But that's how you entered this discussion. You're making an unfounded accusation and embellishing it with jargon you don't really seem to understand.
If you don't want to be lumped in with the Hamas Youth, maybe you should try not parroting the same propaganda.
I don't know what you expect Israel to do. Hamas Youth wants it to surrender, so they can murder the rest of the population. Hamas itself operates out of mosques and schools and shields its fighters with women and children. They're counting on ignorant antisemites around the world to protect them with those whataboutisms. It's working.
Want peace? We all do. All it will take is for Iran and its proxies to say "Israel has a right to exist." That's it. I know it would be a crushing disappointment to the UN and the Ivy League, but that's what this will take.
how would you have defeated Nazi Germany?
We're not talking about Nazi Germany. Nor are we talking about two (or more) countries going to war with one another.
In this case, we're talking about - effectively - a country going to war with a state in its own jurisdiction. It would be closer to the US bombing Oregon ... or Portland ... in the event that Antifa decided to get truly violent.
Granted, that's a bad comparison ... but the take home is that Israel's responsibilities for the civilian population of Gaza are far greater than when two independent nations go to war.
Okay, how would you eliminate the Hamas organization with minimal or zero casualties to civilians in Gaza?
I'll see your comparison and raise you. If Seattle elected Antifa as their government the way Gaza did with Hamas, they'd be traitors, renegades, and insurrectionists just like the Confederacy, and deservedly be treated as such. Gaza should thank their prophet they're facing the IDF instead of Sherman's March to the Sea.
Finally, a serious answer!
According to you, any terrorist group that uses human shields automatically wins. It is well known by all with eyes to see that Hamas deliberately built their infrastructure under heavily populated areas with folks like you in mind. So Israel is not allowed to defend itself by going after the terrorists who've promised to carry out more 10/7s?
If we'd followed your "ideological camp" in WW2, the Nazis would still rule western Europe. Japanese militarists would have their East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. If we'd followed you in the Civil War, blacks would still be enslaved in the Confederate States of America (the former southern U.S.). Your "ideological camp" is morally obtuse. That's what's sad.
I'm not sure who you're talking to as I've said nothing of these things... Perhaps you're responding to someone else?
Your obtuseness is apparently not limited to morals.
LOL - if you have links to when I've said any of these things on ANY social media, please feel free to show me and I'll be happy to respond. As it stands, I have never said anything of the sort.
They are the logical consequence of what you've said just above. If Israel can't destroy Hamas' tunnel infrastructure, then Hamas survives to conduct more 10/7s. Bombing in civilian areas is an unfortunate necessity, since that's where Hamas is located. Will civilians die? Well, that happens in war. You're trying to hold Israel to a standard that nobody else has ever met.
As far as blocking all aid, Israel has allowed in over half a million tons of aid since 10/7. So there you're just lying outright.
As far as going through your posts, don't flatter yourself. You're just a morally obtuse liar. Or more likely, a troll.
All of the above.
A troll with no answers
"you can't carpet bomb civilians for months and refuse to permit aid to those civilians and not expect recourse. It's sad that so many otherwise intelligent people are so stuck in their ideological camp."
Are you REALLY REALLY sure you want to go with that?
Because someone is going to ask you for sources about carpet bombing and permitting aid.
On the subject of aid, guess who get most of that aid? (Hint) Its the guys with the guns.
"sources about carpet bombing and permitting aid."
I wasn't aware that these statements are controversial to anyone with two eyes and a brain. Refusal to accept these undeniable truths is right up there with Palestinian supporters who refuse to accept that Hamas slaughtered/raped civilians and took hostages.
I often wonder about something. If Gaza has approximately 300 miles of tunnels, why doesn't Hamas let the innocent women and children hide down there and come out and fight the IDF man to man?
They are The Shields. Hamas WANTS lots of civilian casualties. Understand there is very little difference between Hamas and Al-QaтАШida. They both come from the same source. Hassan al-Banna founding The Muslim Brotherhood in 1928.
A Good source for Laypersons is Lawrence Wright's "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11"
Except Neither (Carpet Bombing or not allowing aid), is True.
I await sources that they are true.
You do that. Those blind to their own side's atrocities always do.
When someone makes a (controversial) statement like you did, I ask for sources. Why did you say The Israelis Carpet Bombing Gaza and not allowing aid in? Why did you say that, where did you get that? Reasonable questions. So far, No answer. Which leads me to think You don't have any ie making this up.
Except there is nothing controversial about it. Even Israel says as much.
If you want to have a serious conversation, then please do so. But don't be disingenuous. Simply disregarding the facts on the ground because it doesn't fit your simple us-vs-them narrative isn't serious.
Put another way: it would at least be reasonable to debate whether Israel has the right to kill 10's of thousands of civilians through heavy bombardment (which all sides agree they have done) and close off the borders to significant aide (which again, all sides agree they have done) ... and then debate the reasons thereof. But simply saying "no they didn't do what they even said they did" isn't serious.
What Part of "Give Me A Source" don't you understand?
So not serious. Ok - cool! You have a good one.
Because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Nothing I said disproves that statement.