Yes, I think the argument can be made that the institutionalized gender mutilation of children, supported at the highest levels, politically and culturally, is the single most despicable thing that has ever happened in US history. At least in the cases of slavery and lynching, you had broad opposition to what was occurring. Try wrapping …
Yes, I think the argument can be made that the institutionalized gender mutilation of children, supported at the highest levels, politically and culturally, is the single most despicable thing that has ever happened in US history. At least in the cases of slavery and lynching, you had broad opposition to what was occurring. Try wrapping your mind around that idea. It might be it is you who is the one who is "tripping."
Um, slavery wasn't supported at the highest levels of government? Um, police in the South didn't look away when black people got lynched - much less picnic beneath their bodies? Um, we didn't have to fight a long and bloody civil war to end slavery? How broad was that opposition again?
And, um, there isn't broad opposition to medical intervention for trans kids? When's the last time you watched the most popular news station in America?
Yes, I think you're tripping. This bugs you in some... what? religious way? It's just icky? I dunno. Yes, some kids are getting medical interventions they shouldn't be and that's tragic. And the current system of care is bad and certainly not suited to the numbers of trans-presenting youth and needs to be changed, but it ain't the horrifying crisis you think it is. Check out my post on top if you want news about real crises.
Whatever. I just want you to feel better! Come on down and meet my kid. He's great! He's doing hella better than my evangelical cousin's kids - lol. (Btw, she got a boob job - so much for loving the body God gave you.)
Per your short bio on your profile......you might be a "liberal living in a liberal bubble", but you have an odd way of "engaging with other viewpoints". Smug to the core.
If thinking that equating a small number of teens getting medical interventions to which they've consented - rightly or wrongly, and however damaging to them - to slavery (rape, beatings, murder, selling children away from their parents, etc), Jim Crow, lynching, and Nazi experimentation on Jews (and anyone else they thought inferior) is abhorrent and ignorant or, charitably, just bats*** crazy, yes, I'm smug. I'm sorry my tone rubbed you the wrong way, but I really find this view - and the doubling down on it - shocking and disgusting.
And, dude, I just came on here to agree with the author! With the caveat that I didn't think passing laws banning the procedure across the board is the right way to go. I thought there might be discussion of different ways to ensure all kids' safety and well-being. Given The Free Press says it's *about* debate, I didn't expect this to be 100% unified chorus of hysteria and hyperbole and disrespect for the one mother of a trans kid who bothered to show up. But y'all - not me - have made it perfectly clear other people's stories and experiences and opinions are not welcome. This obviously isn't the type of place I thought it was, with a mix of opinions. Sorry I interrupted the circle jerk.
Zarathustra, there is a "mix of opinions" on this page...you just may not be used to having yours challenged. How else to explain your rude and obscene replies?
This is what "a free press" feels like. Again, you may not be used to it.
Pacificus, in my anger, I unsubscribed, but as it stays active for a month, I have time to apologize for being "rude or obscene." It's truly not like me to say things like that.
The question of why I lost my temper has been troubling me. It wasn't that I've never had my views challenged. I think now it was that I was unprepared for the passionate intensity of the opposition here and, more, by how totally outnumbered I'd be. I wasn't prepared for how vulnerable I would feel, in that context, both protective of my child and defensive of myself as a mother. I felt like I'd naively strolled straight into a firehose of misrepresentation, judgement, and calumny aimed directly at my most personal experiences: mothers like me are wannabe hipsters mutilating their kids' genitals to be trendy; or we're pathetic, brainwashed dupes; or we're out-and-out child abusers.
I didn't get that feeling from most of the folks who replied to me, but from tenor of the comments as a whole. As for your comments above, I realize they upset me both for the reasons I stated, and because they functionally situated my parenting choices on a spectrum with historical horrors ranging from slavery to the Holocaust.
Anyway, I'm sure my comments weren't keeping you up at night, but it bothered me that I might remain evidence for you (and other readers) of the world being filled with rude, angry people. As evidence that we really can't get along. Especially because I don't believe that. I believe that, aside from actual psychopaths, we all mean well and we're all doing the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time. I'm sorry I was a jerk.
And please know my child is well-loved and protected. In the scheme of human suffering, he is one of the world's lucky ones.
"Especially because I don't believe that. I believe that, aside from actual psychopaths, we all mean well and we're all doing the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time." Beautifully said, and so true.
Zara, the passionate intensity of so many of the responders (myself included) was sparked by the outrageous story that confirmed what many of us already knew, sort of--that the "transition" industry for children is an incomprehensibly barbaric surgical response to the struggles with gender identity that have suddenly become epidemic, esp in girls. "We are building the plane while we are flying it"--certainly a candidate for the Grisly Quote of the Year.
And if you question any of this, or the related insanity of the "gender identity movment," you are labeled a "phobe," and cancelled--if it can happen to JK Rowling, it can happen to anyone. Again, that is where the emotional intensity of the commenters is coming from, I think.
That said, if I have uoset you with my remarks, I am deeply sorry. I will be thinking about you, and praying for you and your child, and wish you nothing but the best. Don't knowh ow we could set up an ongoing channel for communication, but if you would like that and think it might be helpful, I am willing to do so.
Thanks for this understanding and helpful response. Even liberals - especially moderate liberals like me - chafe at the severity of the “cancel culture” practiced by some impassioned activists. Their voices are powerful. Problem is we tend, as a country, to swing between extremes - the outcry then the backlash. Often caught between are the people whom the issue actually affects and who just want good information and basic compassion and not to be anybody’s political football.
I would love to be able to carry on the type of conversation that could help different “sides” understand each other even if it’s impossible to agree on everything - or anything! I don’t know how to make it happen. I don’t feel comfortable sharing any contact information here. Maybe somebody else will read this and know how to do it safely. Or if somebody knows of a website or other online space specifically for people who want to have such conversations, I’d be very interested. Folks here doubted it, but I really do love talking to my conservative family members (the only ones I socialize with). Even as they’ve gone further to the right, and even when we can’t find common ground, we’re always able to make the other feel that the most important thing is we love and respect each other as human beings. And we can still have a load of fun together. I wish more people had this experience.
Whatever happens, I’m glad we revisited our conversation and so can leave with some hope or even slightly greater faith in humanity. Thank you again for taking the time to reach out in kindness.
Zara (if I may) thank you so much for your heartfelt and sincere reply...just skimming through it here for a moment, I feel as if we have much in common--more, perhaps, than either of us thought possible as of yesterday.
Please allow me to reflect a bit on what you have said and respond in greater detail later today or tomorrow.
I'm not quarreling with you about this, that's with another commenter. However, your "tone" in your response was very smug and that's not how you engage with other viewpoints.
After reading the article (as opposed to the comments), I see that I have not spent enough time studying the transgender issue. I think my neglect is due to the fact that I have put most of my attention on the millions of people trying to recover from the abuse of their parents. A far bigger and more timeless problem than the fate of transgender children. As rabid as you are about transgender, how many of you have seriously looked at the effect of your own parenting on your children? If you have, my hat's off to you. If you haven't, you have no legs in this conversation.
Yes, we did have a "long and bloody civil war" to end slavery...that's kind of my point. The opposition to slavery began during the time of the Revolution and gained strength more or less continually until a war was fought to end it, and in the face the fact that slavery was enormously profitable. I'm just hoping we can go through a similar process with pediatric gender mutilation surgery,but that it won't take nearly as long to be successful. Never forget: their were far more "white people" who, to varying degrees, opposed slavery as compared to the relatively few in the Southern states who could afford to own one.
As for lynching: true, the Southern sheriff often looked the other way when a lynching occurred, if he wasn't involved himself. But that was not always the case--lyniching was still a crime, even if often unpunished. Can't say that about the fad for Pediatric Gender Mutilation surgery--its'fully legal, and you risk your career to speak out about it. You see my point.
And by the way: figures on the NAACP homepage suggest that roughly 4,800 people (of all races) were lynched between 1882-1968....figures from 2020 alone show that nearly 10,000 African Americans were murdered, in the vast majority of cases, by other blacks. That concerns me far far more than does lynching, which has largely been ended. How about you?
So, the craze for Pediatric Gender Mutilation surgery "ain't the horrifying crisis" that Jamie Reed and I think it is...guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. History will judge us both on that.
I will choose ignore the rude and insulting tone of your remarks. It does not speak well, either of you or your positions.
It bugs me in an anti gay, anti woman anti mental health and anti human flourishing kind of way. It would take ages to dissect all those angles. Simply put, the exponential degree to which kids are seeking medical transition is being co-opted by an activist class that has zero interest for their long term well-being but are very willing to make them patients of a capitalist medical system that makes them patients for life.
And this is the scariest part, seemingly kind people cannot grasp how dystopian this all is. They just can’t see the consequences of this. Like it’s no big deal. It’s actually societal collapse level stuff when you drill down and we are being prevented from speaking about it by the ruling class and the mainstream.
Yes, I think the argument can be made that the institutionalized gender mutilation of children, supported at the highest levels, politically and culturally, is the single most despicable thing that has ever happened in US history. At least in the cases of slavery and lynching, you had broad opposition to what was occurring. Try wrapping your mind around that idea. It might be it is you who is the one who is "tripping."
Um, slavery wasn't supported at the highest levels of government? Um, police in the South didn't look away when black people got lynched - much less picnic beneath their bodies? Um, we didn't have to fight a long and bloody civil war to end slavery? How broad was that opposition again?
And, um, there isn't broad opposition to medical intervention for trans kids? When's the last time you watched the most popular news station in America?
Yes, I think you're tripping. This bugs you in some... what? religious way? It's just icky? I dunno. Yes, some kids are getting medical interventions they shouldn't be and that's tragic. And the current system of care is bad and certainly not suited to the numbers of trans-presenting youth and needs to be changed, but it ain't the horrifying crisis you think it is. Check out my post on top if you want news about real crises.
Whatever. I just want you to feel better! Come on down and meet my kid. He's great! He's doing hella better than my evangelical cousin's kids - lol. (Btw, she got a boob job - so much for loving the body God gave you.)
Per your short bio on your profile......you might be a "liberal living in a liberal bubble", but you have an odd way of "engaging with other viewpoints". Smug to the core.
If thinking that equating a small number of teens getting medical interventions to which they've consented - rightly or wrongly, and however damaging to them - to slavery (rape, beatings, murder, selling children away from their parents, etc), Jim Crow, lynching, and Nazi experimentation on Jews (and anyone else they thought inferior) is abhorrent and ignorant or, charitably, just bats*** crazy, yes, I'm smug. I'm sorry my tone rubbed you the wrong way, but I really find this view - and the doubling down on it - shocking and disgusting.
And, dude, I just came on here to agree with the author! With the caveat that I didn't think passing laws banning the procedure across the board is the right way to go. I thought there might be discussion of different ways to ensure all kids' safety and well-being. Given The Free Press says it's *about* debate, I didn't expect this to be 100% unified chorus of hysteria and hyperbole and disrespect for the one mother of a trans kid who bothered to show up. But y'all - not me - have made it perfectly clear other people's stories and experiences and opinions are not welcome. This obviously isn't the type of place I thought it was, with a mix of opinions. Sorry I interrupted the circle jerk.
Zarathustra, there is a "mix of opinions" on this page...you just may not be used to having yours challenged. How else to explain your rude and obscene replies?
This is what "a free press" feels like. Again, you may not be used to it.
Pacificus, in my anger, I unsubscribed, but as it stays active for a month, I have time to apologize for being "rude or obscene." It's truly not like me to say things like that.
The question of why I lost my temper has been troubling me. It wasn't that I've never had my views challenged. I think now it was that I was unprepared for the passionate intensity of the opposition here and, more, by how totally outnumbered I'd be. I wasn't prepared for how vulnerable I would feel, in that context, both protective of my child and defensive of myself as a mother. I felt like I'd naively strolled straight into a firehose of misrepresentation, judgement, and calumny aimed directly at my most personal experiences: mothers like me are wannabe hipsters mutilating their kids' genitals to be trendy; or we're pathetic, brainwashed dupes; or we're out-and-out child abusers.
I didn't get that feeling from most of the folks who replied to me, but from tenor of the comments as a whole. As for your comments above, I realize they upset me both for the reasons I stated, and because they functionally situated my parenting choices on a spectrum with historical horrors ranging from slavery to the Holocaust.
Anyway, I'm sure my comments weren't keeping you up at night, but it bothered me that I might remain evidence for you (and other readers) of the world being filled with rude, angry people. As evidence that we really can't get along. Especially because I don't believe that. I believe that, aside from actual psychopaths, we all mean well and we're all doing the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time. I'm sorry I was a jerk.
And please know my child is well-loved and protected. In the scheme of human suffering, he is one of the world's lucky ones.
"Especially because I don't believe that. I believe that, aside from actual psychopaths, we all mean well and we're all doing the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time." Beautifully said, and so true.
Zara, the passionate intensity of so many of the responders (myself included) was sparked by the outrageous story that confirmed what many of us already knew, sort of--that the "transition" industry for children is an incomprehensibly barbaric surgical response to the struggles with gender identity that have suddenly become epidemic, esp in girls. "We are building the plane while we are flying it"--certainly a candidate for the Grisly Quote of the Year.
And if you question any of this, or the related insanity of the "gender identity movment," you are labeled a "phobe," and cancelled--if it can happen to JK Rowling, it can happen to anyone. Again, that is where the emotional intensity of the commenters is coming from, I think.
That said, if I have uoset you with my remarks, I am deeply sorry. I will be thinking about you, and praying for you and your child, and wish you nothing but the best. Don't knowh ow we could set up an ongoing channel for communication, but if you would like that and think it might be helpful, I am willing to do so.
Much love, Pacificus.
Thanks for this understanding and helpful response. Even liberals - especially moderate liberals like me - chafe at the severity of the “cancel culture” practiced by some impassioned activists. Their voices are powerful. Problem is we tend, as a country, to swing between extremes - the outcry then the backlash. Often caught between are the people whom the issue actually affects and who just want good information and basic compassion and not to be anybody’s political football.
I would love to be able to carry on the type of conversation that could help different “sides” understand each other even if it’s impossible to agree on everything - or anything! I don’t know how to make it happen. I don’t feel comfortable sharing any contact information here. Maybe somebody else will read this and know how to do it safely. Or if somebody knows of a website or other online space specifically for people who want to have such conversations, I’d be very interested. Folks here doubted it, but I really do love talking to my conservative family members (the only ones I socialize with). Even as they’ve gone further to the right, and even when we can’t find common ground, we’re always able to make the other feel that the most important thing is we love and respect each other as human beings. And we can still have a load of fun together. I wish more people had this experience.
Whatever happens, I’m glad we revisited our conversation and so can leave with some hope or even slightly greater faith in humanity. Thank you again for taking the time to reach out in kindness.
Zara (if I may) thank you so much for your heartfelt and sincere reply...just skimming through it here for a moment, I feel as if we have much in common--more, perhaps, than either of us thought possible as of yesterday.
Please allow me to reflect a bit on what you have said and respond in greater detail later today or tomorrow.
I'm not quarreling with you about this, that's with another commenter. However, your "tone" in your response was very smug and that's not how you engage with other viewpoints.
And, I'm not a dude.
For some reason, your comment came to me instead of Zarathustra.
I'm going to blame the Chinese spy balloon....
After reading the article (as opposed to the comments), I see that I have not spent enough time studying the transgender issue. I think my neglect is due to the fact that I have put most of my attention on the millions of people trying to recover from the abuse of their parents. A far bigger and more timeless problem than the fate of transgender children. As rabid as you are about transgender, how many of you have seriously looked at the effect of your own parenting on your children? If you have, my hat's off to you. If you haven't, you have no legs in this conversation.
Yes, we did have a "long and bloody civil war" to end slavery...that's kind of my point. The opposition to slavery began during the time of the Revolution and gained strength more or less continually until a war was fought to end it, and in the face the fact that slavery was enormously profitable. I'm just hoping we can go through a similar process with pediatric gender mutilation surgery,but that it won't take nearly as long to be successful. Never forget: their were far more "white people" who, to varying degrees, opposed slavery as compared to the relatively few in the Southern states who could afford to own one.
As for lynching: true, the Southern sheriff often looked the other way when a lynching occurred, if he wasn't involved himself. But that was not always the case--lyniching was still a crime, even if often unpunished. Can't say that about the fad for Pediatric Gender Mutilation surgery--its'fully legal, and you risk your career to speak out about it. You see my point.
And by the way: figures on the NAACP homepage suggest that roughly 4,800 people (of all races) were lynched between 1882-1968....figures from 2020 alone show that nearly 10,000 African Americans were murdered, in the vast majority of cases, by other blacks. That concerns me far far more than does lynching, which has largely been ended. How about you?
So, the craze for Pediatric Gender Mutilation surgery "ain't the horrifying crisis" that Jamie Reed and I think it is...guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. History will judge us both on that.
I will choose ignore the rude and insulting tone of your remarks. It does not speak well, either of you or your positions.
It bugs me in an anti gay, anti woman anti mental health and anti human flourishing kind of way. It would take ages to dissect all those angles. Simply put, the exponential degree to which kids are seeking medical transition is being co-opted by an activist class that has zero interest for their long term well-being but are very willing to make them patients of a capitalist medical system that makes them patients for life.
And this is the scariest part, seemingly kind people cannot grasp how dystopian this all is. They just can’t see the consequences of this. Like it’s no big deal. It’s actually societal collapse level stuff when you drill down and we are being prevented from speaking about it by the ruling class and the mainstream.
Guys, guys! No it's not. Society is not collapsing. I promise.