Mickel and Kate -- Exchange between us may be difficult because we're working with different definitions. When you say "socialism", I suspect you are referring to things like health care for all, minimum wage, regulation of business, labor unions, etc. To me, those things simply mean moving into the 21st century, following the lead of mo…
Mickel and Kate -- Exchange between us may be difficult because we're working with different definitions. When you say "socialism", I suspect you are referring to things like health care for all, minimum wage, regulation of business, labor unions, etc. To me, those things simply mean moving into the 21st century, following the lead of most Western countries. The only socialism in this country at the moment (other than (1) basics like highways and schools and (2) a few welfare programs) are the bailouts and tax breaks going to the elite each time they or their companies get into trouble. I doubt we will ever agree on this difference between us, so I guess there is not much point in debating it further at this time.
As for the article, clearly the author would live in a Marxist society (which the right insists erroneously on equating with socialism) if given his choice (then why does he live here?). But that's neither here nor there because the number of people in America (left and right) who want Marxism is in the hundreds, maybe. For that reason, the Marxism issue is a red herring.
But I don't think that is the thrust of the article. The thrust of the article is about the pig-headedness of the group calling itself the progressive left, which is wasting its energy on a transgender and pronouns battle instead of unifying and putting their energy toward important issues like financial equality or democratic reform. In this way, the progressive left has become (or always were) just like the right wing whose leaders refuse to unify, consistently vote against the interests of their constituencies, have abandoned conservative ideals, and promise future violence, and whose constituency is obsessed with the "woke", can't wait to use their guns, would turn Trump into the "second coming", and seem to idolize the rich.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. An in-depth conversation is best started over at least one bottle of wine. However, here's a hodge podge of thoughts.
I loathe crony capitalism. I loathe big government. I loathe back-room deals. I think we'd find some common ground there.
Marxism and socialism may be different. However, some folks use socialism as cover for their Marxist desires. Others, like BLM, are, or at least were until called out on it, explicitly Marxist. It's a lot more than a few hundred folks.
A comment that caught my attention is: "In this way, the progressive left has become (or always were) just like the right wing whose leaders refuse to unify, consistently vote against the interests of their constituencies, have abandoned conservative ideals, and promise future violence, and whose constituency is obsessed with the "woke", can't wait to use their guns, would turn Trump into the "second coming", and seem to idolize the rich."
1) Everyone has abandoned their principles - most likely they never had them and manipulated us poor rubes who do. The DNC is now apparently for forever wars, the suppression of free speech, and are a shill for big Pharma. Further, I'm not sure the RNC ever had fiscal responsibility as anything other than a talking point and wedge issue. I've taken to saying the half-life for hypocrisy in DC is becoming very short.
2) Vote against the interests of their constituency... In what ways to do you feel the RNC votes against their constituency?
As for the DNC, their constituency seems to be elite liberal whites who don't suffer the consequences of their counterproductive policies. Here's some examples. A strong majority of Americans don't like abortion in the 3rd trimester. The DNC has become explicitly anti-woman in their extreme support (i.e. beyond supporting in a rational way) of the Trans movement. I believe the DNC border policy is harmful to the working poor and opposed by at least a plurality of Hispanic Americans. With regard to the African American vote, a majority of African Americans support voter ID and oppose the concept of 'Defund the police'. To me it seems the DNC takes the racist position of knowing what's best for the minorities whether they agree or not. That the minority vote is still overwhelmingly Democratic is baffling to me - though that appears to be shifting... some.
3) As for the Maga-Trump portion of this quote. It's my opinion that Mr. Trump is a buffoon. I'd love to see someone else win the Republican nomination. However, I also believe the Federal government and DNC have thrown due process, equal justice and a host of other American ideals out the window, and they pose the bigger threat than Mr. Trump. I'd rather have the buffoon who mostly has centrist policies than the start walking down the Road to Serfdom that the DNC is selling.
Fair statement. I don't have the energy to address all of your points (nor do I disagree with some of them), but here are a few comments (in order).
I think if we were together we would before too long move past the commonly discussed issues to the one which, I believe, underlies all of them, namely, ending or at least diluting the dominance (overt and covert) by "the elite". I've had that experience with other thinking people on the right. In my opinion, most of the other issues are created by the elite to distract and separate all of us.
Pretending that the other issues are important . . . The reason that I do not have a party affiliation is that I feel both sides - equally - have failed to give the issues much thought. I see almost no one offering solutions (the exception for me being Robert Reich). I don't think many of us fully understand the issues because the words from the supposed experts are superficial and often devolve to the ad hominem. I think Biden is genuinely trying to offer solutions on some issues, but he is so different from his party (not to mention the right) that I don't hold out much hope for him, even if he wins in 2024. I put no stock in the attempts to portray him as criminal or incompetent: Americans always destroy whoever is on top at the moment. (Besides, there is still no evidence.)
By giving the politicians (fed and state) a "short half life", you show more regard for them than I have. I hate that we have to show them so much attention. I blame the press for that.
I would love it if we got to the point where we are debating the third trimester. Right now, we're stuck in the 6-week debate, which I consider mean and ludicrous. I also believe too much of the abortion debate is really about attitudes toward women. I know that's so for me.
I too don't like the DNC's relationship with minorities. Unfortunately, the right is no better. This is one of the many instances where the two-party system, where the parties pretend to be at war but are actually aligned, fails. The minorities have no real political friends, but then neither did the minorities (mostly immigrants) who went before.
Describing Trump as a man of "centrist policies" is down right silly. As a historian and student of the Third Reich, I for one take seriously Trump's promises to create a dictatorship (aligning with the dictators already in power), to use federal agencies to effect his desires for revenge, to back white (and Christian) supremacy, and to financially enhance the elite to the detriment of the rest of us.
Though we will never agree, I have enjoyed our discussion. Discussions in our tone of voice are way too rare.
Mickel and Kate -- Exchange between us may be difficult because we're working with different definitions. When you say "socialism", I suspect you are referring to things like health care for all, minimum wage, regulation of business, labor unions, etc. To me, those things simply mean moving into the 21st century, following the lead of most Western countries. The only socialism in this country at the moment (other than (1) basics like highways and schools and (2) a few welfare programs) are the bailouts and tax breaks going to the elite each time they or their companies get into trouble. I doubt we will ever agree on this difference between us, so I guess there is not much point in debating it further at this time.
As for the article, clearly the author would live in a Marxist society (which the right insists erroneously on equating with socialism) if given his choice (then why does he live here?). But that's neither here nor there because the number of people in America (left and right) who want Marxism is in the hundreds, maybe. For that reason, the Marxism issue is a red herring.
But I don't think that is the thrust of the article. The thrust of the article is about the pig-headedness of the group calling itself the progressive left, which is wasting its energy on a transgender and pronouns battle instead of unifying and putting their energy toward important issues like financial equality or democratic reform. In this way, the progressive left has become (or always were) just like the right wing whose leaders refuse to unify, consistently vote against the interests of their constituencies, have abandoned conservative ideals, and promise future violence, and whose constituency is obsessed with the "woke", can't wait to use their guns, would turn Trump into the "second coming", and seem to idolize the rich.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. An in-depth conversation is best started over at least one bottle of wine. However, here's a hodge podge of thoughts.
I loathe crony capitalism. I loathe big government. I loathe back-room deals. I think we'd find some common ground there.
Marxism and socialism may be different. However, some folks use socialism as cover for their Marxist desires. Others, like BLM, are, or at least were until called out on it, explicitly Marxist. It's a lot more than a few hundred folks.
A comment that caught my attention is: "In this way, the progressive left has become (or always were) just like the right wing whose leaders refuse to unify, consistently vote against the interests of their constituencies, have abandoned conservative ideals, and promise future violence, and whose constituency is obsessed with the "woke", can't wait to use their guns, would turn Trump into the "second coming", and seem to idolize the rich."
1) Everyone has abandoned their principles - most likely they never had them and manipulated us poor rubes who do. The DNC is now apparently for forever wars, the suppression of free speech, and are a shill for big Pharma. Further, I'm not sure the RNC ever had fiscal responsibility as anything other than a talking point and wedge issue. I've taken to saying the half-life for hypocrisy in DC is becoming very short.
2) Vote against the interests of their constituency... In what ways to do you feel the RNC votes against their constituency?
As for the DNC, their constituency seems to be elite liberal whites who don't suffer the consequences of their counterproductive policies. Here's some examples. A strong majority of Americans don't like abortion in the 3rd trimester. The DNC has become explicitly anti-woman in their extreme support (i.e. beyond supporting in a rational way) of the Trans movement. I believe the DNC border policy is harmful to the working poor and opposed by at least a plurality of Hispanic Americans. With regard to the African American vote, a majority of African Americans support voter ID and oppose the concept of 'Defund the police'. To me it seems the DNC takes the racist position of knowing what's best for the minorities whether they agree or not. That the minority vote is still overwhelmingly Democratic is baffling to me - though that appears to be shifting... some.
3) As for the Maga-Trump portion of this quote. It's my opinion that Mr. Trump is a buffoon. I'd love to see someone else win the Republican nomination. However, I also believe the Federal government and DNC have thrown due process, equal justice and a host of other American ideals out the window, and they pose the bigger threat than Mr. Trump. I'd rather have the buffoon who mostly has centrist policies than the start walking down the Road to Serfdom that the DNC is selling.
Fair statement. I don't have the energy to address all of your points (nor do I disagree with some of them), but here are a few comments (in order).
I think if we were together we would before too long move past the commonly discussed issues to the one which, I believe, underlies all of them, namely, ending or at least diluting the dominance (overt and covert) by "the elite". I've had that experience with other thinking people on the right. In my opinion, most of the other issues are created by the elite to distract and separate all of us.
Pretending that the other issues are important . . . The reason that I do not have a party affiliation is that I feel both sides - equally - have failed to give the issues much thought. I see almost no one offering solutions (the exception for me being Robert Reich). I don't think many of us fully understand the issues because the words from the supposed experts are superficial and often devolve to the ad hominem. I think Biden is genuinely trying to offer solutions on some issues, but he is so different from his party (not to mention the right) that I don't hold out much hope for him, even if he wins in 2024. I put no stock in the attempts to portray him as criminal or incompetent: Americans always destroy whoever is on top at the moment. (Besides, there is still no evidence.)
By giving the politicians (fed and state) a "short half life", you show more regard for them than I have. I hate that we have to show them so much attention. I blame the press for that.
I would love it if we got to the point where we are debating the third trimester. Right now, we're stuck in the 6-week debate, which I consider mean and ludicrous. I also believe too much of the abortion debate is really about attitudes toward women. I know that's so for me.
I too don't like the DNC's relationship with minorities. Unfortunately, the right is no better. This is one of the many instances where the two-party system, where the parties pretend to be at war but are actually aligned, fails. The minorities have no real political friends, but then neither did the minorities (mostly immigrants) who went before.
Describing Trump as a man of "centrist policies" is down right silly. As a historian and student of the Third Reich, I for one take seriously Trump's promises to create a dictatorship (aligning with the dictators already in power), to use federal agencies to effect his desires for revenge, to back white (and Christian) supremacy, and to financially enhance the elite to the detriment of the rest of us.
Though we will never agree, I have enjoyed our discussion. Discussions in our tone of voice are way too rare.