Just saw this video and thought it germane to the thread - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-63506246. "Dads on Duty" in Shreveport, Louisiana, totally turned a distressed school culture around.
No one - of any color - does well, without heaping doses of love and connection.
When you add other factors, income, education, culture, etc., you just increase the predicative odds against success.
Any contemplation of judicial reform that ignores the bigger picture is missing the boat. People have a need to be safe, but when we, as a society continue to poison the environment that so many of these violent offenders marinate in, we are almost ensuring our lack of safety. (Consider the uptake in school shootings, incel culture, opiods, teen suicides triggered by vicious online behaviors.)
It's not primarily a racial issue - although racial factors compound it. It's our trashy culture that glorifies the wrong values and makes that love and connection a rare commodity, instead of every baby's birthright.
What I appreciate about these men is that they are big-hearted enough to spread some of that love around. More of this please! We all have someone in our sphere of influence who could use some encouraging. Let's step up.
Bazelon is a skillful linguist who uses words to slant the story her way while misleading readers.
Let's examine some points quickly and rebut them:
She cites a SINGLE criminologist as the basis for her assertions - what about the whole criminological community? Is there a consensus? Or sharp disagreements?
She sets up a straw man argument about the "typical" criminal, I mean poor soul, who is the grist for the media mill: "An individual—usually a man with dark skin—did something horrific to an innocent victim—usually an attractive white woman, an elderly person, or worst of all, a child." Unfortunately many criminals are persons of color. But their victims? Overwhelmingly - 90%+ -persons of color themselves.
Another straw man: "Let loose, this marauding psychopath then wreaked havoc that was all too foreseeable." Some truth to this, but no one calls these criminals "psychos" - we realize that most criminals are rational and can decide for themselves whether they will commit a crime or not.
Look at the facts: When we enforced long sentences, crime went down. Even when the demographics favored an increase in crime due to the increase in poor young men who often are criminals, crime stayed down. It was only when we got soft on crime when it started to increase.
Bazleon should be ashamed of herself but is incapable of that. Moreover, a significant number of crimes is committed by persons who, while not "pychos" as she would try to call them, still need extensive mental health treatment. But why don't they get it? Because extremists such as Bazleon closed the mental hospitals and threw the patients on the streets without care in the name of supporting their rights. And it is impossible to force them into treatment even when they clearly need it.
Fact is, it is Bazleon and her fellow travelers who have made this problem the crisis it is and then have the gall to blame racism, incarceration, and punishment the reasons for the increase in crime.
I thought this was a great debate and I went into it definitely biased towards Rafael based on my own research on this issue during the last ten years. I think Lara made some great points. My major takeaway on the macro view is that while the right seems mostly concerned with lowering criminal activity, helping the communities where crime is hyper concentrated and really prioritizing the victims and potential victims of violent crime, the left (Lara) seems to prioritize the well being of the actual criminals and criminally accused over everything. Whether it's how criminals/criminal suspects are stopped, questioned, investigated, tried, incarcerated, monitored, etc. is the absolute most important thing here for Lara. The discussion on this is a huge distraction to law enforcement professionals doing their jobs and a massive opportunity cost to tackling the issue at hand--actual violent criminal activity.
Her description of the entire SF police force as "incompetent" left a really sour taste in my mouth and made me feel like she had no idea what it was like doing the messy work of policing street crime (not that I do either). Of course there are bad/incompetent actors at every level of our criminal justice apparatus, but wow. Go work homicide for a year and let me know how it goes.
2020 wasn't actually "defund the police" as much as "delegitimize the entire criminal justice system" in the eyes of the American public and also the bad guys that were already terrorizing these communities. As a result of the lack of support, perpetual skepticism and fear of being the next national news story, Cops very rationally chose to look the other way and criminals thrived.
This was a huge mistake for our country. It was like looking at a handful of ER trauma surgeons that made costly mistakes or were maybe just plain evil and took the lives of patients--and then decrying that the entire medical profession was corrupt. On balance our criminal justice system and our police officers are a massive benefit to these communities that unfortunately suffer from eye-popping amounts of disproportionate criminal activity. The issue is the crime itself and it always has been.
I was born in 1984 and this has been by far the most ignorant policy/public sentiment episode I have seen in my entire life. It goes against all common sense and human nature and has done irreparable harm to our most vulnerable communities. It has set back progress that took years to build. All in the name of what? I know progressives aren't actually evil but I just can't understand how they can preside over this destruction and pretend like they care about anyone or anything....other than the criminals themselves.
Neither author addresses root cause of crime - societal rot, moral decay, call it whatever you want. Until you understand cause, you are only treating symptoms and could potentially exacerbate the issue.
This isn't a debate. They are talking past each other. Both mention specific problems in the justice system What to do with really violent criminals and how not to treat those who can be rehabilitated Both problems need attention. Harold Hanerfeld
Of course Bazelon teaches racial justice at U. of San Fran. What else did you expect? She offers up no solutions, just tired, recycled liberal ideas and policies from the 60's and 70's that already failed in spectacular fashion and with devastating result. Her kind thinks Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy can be rehabilitated.
I'm sure Willie Horton's victims take great comfort in knowing that 99 percent of that furlough program was successful.
Lara B. says, "... becoming a hyper-punitive society is a really ineffective way to deter crime."
This may be true, but this conversation isn't just about deterring crime, it's about getting the repeat offender off the streets. As a Libertarian, I abhor filling our prisons with non-violent drug users, who have hurt no one but themselves. Without a victim, there can be no crime. But the violent criminals, who have shown us they're simply non reformable, need to be kept away from law abiding society.
This isn't about deterrence. It's about protecting society.
I'm sorry but for those swayed by facts over manufactured political narratives, this isn't much of a debate. Ms. Bazelon is the quintessential enabler masquerading her virtue, forever playing the race card, a classical liberal coward. Bazelon addresses black on white crime in her broad strokes story and boldly proclaims that such black on white incidents of violence are "statistically rare occurrences" implying that they are greatly exaggerated because of racism and racial animus. Who is she kidding. The FBI website is the most reliable source of crime statistics (see also: Heather McDonalds's book "The War on Cops or John Dilulio Jr.'s article in the City Journal "My Black Crime Problem, and Ours). About 50% of all murders in the U.S. are committed by blacks; blacks commit over 40% of all violent crime, and black on white violent crime exceeds white on black violent crime by a ratio of between 25:1 and 50:1 - In 2018 the Bureau of Justice reported the following numbers under the heading: Interracial Violent Crime Incidents 2018: Black on White: 547,948 - White on Black: 112,365. Additionally, in 2018 the Department of Justice Hate Crime FBI statistics reported that of the 6,266 known hate crime offenders, 53.6 were white and 24% were black. Of course most black people are good and decent law abiding citizens but for decades incidents of black on white violence have been downplayed while incidents of white on black violence exaggerated. This deceit continues today with the drumbeat narrative that the greatest threat to blacks in America comes from white cops and white supremacists with nary a word on the threats to whites and other blacks that black violent crime causes. No, poverty and racism are not the main factors contributing to high and now higher black crime rates. Rather, it is decades of liberal/leftist policies that are to blame; policies that have nurtured dependence, impaired the development of personal responsibility, reinforced victim status, fostered grievance, hopelessness, and rage, and fractured black families; it is these policies that have enabled this heightened level of criminal behavior, and until the people who promote these destructive and divisive narratives are disempowered, it will only get worse. God bless all Americans!
I’d like to ask a question of those here on the Left who legitimately believe (if we have folks who do). What is it about Conservatives/Republicans that you have suddenly decided that our worldview is fascist or white nationalism? I see this slur so damn much and it both saddens and angers me. I remember hearing inklings of this back when W was President but it’s said so much without consequences or evidence these days. Our worldview hasn’t really changed much other than perhaps being far more understanding about gays and lesbians. People seem to forget that even Obama wasn’t for gay marriage until it was politically expedient…In general most of us have been pro law enforcement due to how bad crime can be when it’s not supported. We have mostly believed in strong border enforcement as folks should follow the laws of our country to come here (and be vetted). Many of us have long been Pro Life, for a strong defense and low taxes and regulations. I’m just curious why the belief system we have long had when we would civilly discuss politics is now termed in such ugly terms? I suspect MOST of the liberals here don’t think like this (I pray that I’m right) as this community honestly feels like what America should be.
"An individual—usually a man with dark skin—did something horrific to an innocent victim—usually an attractive white woman"
You lose me right there.
The question being asked is "how ought we to keep bad people from doing bad stuff". The answer to that question is 100% race neutral. The skin color of the perp or victim is simply irrelevant. And yet you start there.
To be clear, I think our prison system has a lot of problems. We need to separate who we're "afraid of" from who we're "mad at" and treat them differently. We need to have real reintegration system for prior inmates. As a society, we need to grant grace and forgiveness instead of labelling people an ex-con for life. We need money for mental health across the board. None of which has ANYTHING to do with race.
Left or Right... if you think skin color matters more than behavior, you are a racist. Full stop. And I'm done listening to racists.
Bazelon’s assertion that certain kinds of violent crime are rare and that the resulting coverage is therefore frenzied falls short of legitimacy for me. It feels the same when certain commentators say that school shootings are statistically rare. Yes, but so is pedophilia among clergy, airplane engine failure, shark attacks and food poisoning. Yet when an airline has two crashes in a year we consider them to be systemically negligent. Our favorite restaurant becomes a place we would never return. We avoid surfing near the pier at sunrise. And everyone has, or should have, a problem with shuffling reoffending priests around. We take the rarity and act accordingly.
I think what neither is really getting at is the day-to-day brokenness of the prison system. Correctional facilities don’t correct. Why is that? A journalist wiser than me might consider the money involved. Recidivism is a pyramid scheme, it seems. When you are paid by the bed it makes sense to set up the system in a way that correction becomes impossible.
It is primarily black communities that pay the biggest price for keeping repeat violent offenders on the street. The following is a link to Glenn Loury’s interview with Rafael Mangual ... more in depth discussion .
Why do you think progressive white people care so little about it.
If their suburban neighborhoods were getting shot up, I doubt they would be so cavalier. But it's easy to virtue signal when you can afford gates and private security.
In many 3rd world countries (Africa I'm familiar with) it's normal for wealthy to have armed private security (essentially private police) with panic buttons while underfunded (public) police departments and do little to stop crime among the poor. Is this where progressives want to take us?
Special event going on NOW - livestream about the global dangers of WHO/WEF attempt to take control and what to do about it, the grave harms caused by the covid shots, & more. Now talking: Rabbi Jonathan Rietti. In 1 hour at 5:30 PM EDT - live with Dr. Pierre Kory MD in NY! Afterwards: Attorneys Thomas Renz and Bobbie Anne Cox. Please join! https://truth613.substack.com/p/critical-livestreamlive-event-this
Recording will G-d willing be posted on my substack afterwards.
The opening sentence of the prefatory comment introducing this constructive dialogue is careless and misleading. Jeff Asher is an expert in crime statistics, having worked at the Pentagon, the CIA and the New Orleans police department. In a recent interview on NPR, Asher points out that the most recent FBI crime statistics, covering 2021, are woefully incomplete since major law enforcement agencies have not yet submitted their statistics. But this much is clear: Property crime has been declining for the past twenty years. Violent crime -- aggravated assault, murder, rape, and robbery, increased in 2020 but remains 30 to 40 percent lower than in the 1990s.
As Asher remarked, with woefully incomplete data available for 2021 ". . . we get a lot of politicians that are saying a lot of things that frequently are based on anecdote or sort of the vibes of the moment," he says. "And we get, then, a lot of misinformation and poor decisions being made in the name of data-less arguments."
But this much can be said about the disturbing increase in gun violence: "It happened in big cities, it happened in small cities. It happened in counties that voted for Trump, it happened in counties that voted for Biden," he says. "It was really everywhere, and so I think that most places in America are grappling with at least some increase in gun violence over the last two years, which brings it to the forefront of these elections as they're taking place now."
Nearly one in five American households bought a firearm during the pandemic, many were first-time gun owners. 25 states now allow open carry of a firearm without training or a permit. After years of pandemic related restrictions and frustrations, add many thousands of untrained new gun owners packing heat everywhere they go, it's not surprising that we're faced with a spike in gun violence.
Just saw this video and thought it germane to the thread - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-63506246. "Dads on Duty" in Shreveport, Louisiana, totally turned a distressed school culture around.
No one - of any color - does well, without heaping doses of love and connection.
When you add other factors, income, education, culture, etc., you just increase the predicative odds against success.
Any contemplation of judicial reform that ignores the bigger picture is missing the boat. People have a need to be safe, but when we, as a society continue to poison the environment that so many of these violent offenders marinate in, we are almost ensuring our lack of safety. (Consider the uptake in school shootings, incel culture, opiods, teen suicides triggered by vicious online behaviors.)
It's not primarily a racial issue - although racial factors compound it. It's our trashy culture that glorifies the wrong values and makes that love and connection a rare commodity, instead of every baby's birthright.
What I appreciate about these men is that they are big-hearted enough to spread some of that love around. More of this please! We all have someone in our sphere of influence who could use some encouraging. Let's step up.
Bazelon is a skillful linguist who uses words to slant the story her way while misleading readers.
Let's examine some points quickly and rebut them:
She cites a SINGLE criminologist as the basis for her assertions - what about the whole criminological community? Is there a consensus? Or sharp disagreements?
She sets up a straw man argument about the "typical" criminal, I mean poor soul, who is the grist for the media mill: "An individual—usually a man with dark skin—did something horrific to an innocent victim—usually an attractive white woman, an elderly person, or worst of all, a child." Unfortunately many criminals are persons of color. But their victims? Overwhelmingly - 90%+ -persons of color themselves.
Another straw man: "Let loose, this marauding psychopath then wreaked havoc that was all too foreseeable." Some truth to this, but no one calls these criminals "psychos" - we realize that most criminals are rational and can decide for themselves whether they will commit a crime or not.
Look at the facts: When we enforced long sentences, crime went down. Even when the demographics favored an increase in crime due to the increase in poor young men who often are criminals, crime stayed down. It was only when we got soft on crime when it started to increase.
Bazleon should be ashamed of herself but is incapable of that. Moreover, a significant number of crimes is committed by persons who, while not "pychos" as she would try to call them, still need extensive mental health treatment. But why don't they get it? Because extremists such as Bazleon closed the mental hospitals and threw the patients on the streets without care in the name of supporting their rights. And it is impossible to force them into treatment even when they clearly need it.
Fact is, it is Bazleon and her fellow travelers who have made this problem the crisis it is and then have the gall to blame racism, incarceration, and punishment the reasons for the increase in crime.
I thought this was a great debate and I went into it definitely biased towards Rafael based on my own research on this issue during the last ten years. I think Lara made some great points. My major takeaway on the macro view is that while the right seems mostly concerned with lowering criminal activity, helping the communities where crime is hyper concentrated and really prioritizing the victims and potential victims of violent crime, the left (Lara) seems to prioritize the well being of the actual criminals and criminally accused over everything. Whether it's how criminals/criminal suspects are stopped, questioned, investigated, tried, incarcerated, monitored, etc. is the absolute most important thing here for Lara. The discussion on this is a huge distraction to law enforcement professionals doing their jobs and a massive opportunity cost to tackling the issue at hand--actual violent criminal activity.
Her description of the entire SF police force as "incompetent" left a really sour taste in my mouth and made me feel like she had no idea what it was like doing the messy work of policing street crime (not that I do either). Of course there are bad/incompetent actors at every level of our criminal justice apparatus, but wow. Go work homicide for a year and let me know how it goes.
2020 wasn't actually "defund the police" as much as "delegitimize the entire criminal justice system" in the eyes of the American public and also the bad guys that were already terrorizing these communities. As a result of the lack of support, perpetual skepticism and fear of being the next national news story, Cops very rationally chose to look the other way and criminals thrived.
This was a huge mistake for our country. It was like looking at a handful of ER trauma surgeons that made costly mistakes or were maybe just plain evil and took the lives of patients--and then decrying that the entire medical profession was corrupt. On balance our criminal justice system and our police officers are a massive benefit to these communities that unfortunately suffer from eye-popping amounts of disproportionate criminal activity. The issue is the crime itself and it always has been.
I was born in 1984 and this has been by far the most ignorant policy/public sentiment episode I have seen in my entire life. It goes against all common sense and human nature and has done irreparable harm to our most vulnerable communities. It has set back progress that took years to build. All in the name of what? I know progressives aren't actually evil but I just can't understand how they can preside over this destruction and pretend like they care about anyone or anything....other than the criminals themselves.
Neither author addresses root cause of crime - societal rot, moral decay, call it whatever you want. Until you understand cause, you are only treating symptoms and could potentially exacerbate the issue.
This isn't a debate. They are talking past each other. Both mention specific problems in the justice system What to do with really violent criminals and how not to treat those who can be rehabilitated Both problems need attention. Harold Hanerfeld
Of course Bazelon teaches racial justice at U. of San Fran. What else did you expect? She offers up no solutions, just tired, recycled liberal ideas and policies from the 60's and 70's that already failed in spectacular fashion and with devastating result. Her kind thinks Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy can be rehabilitated.
I'm sure Willie Horton's victims take great comfort in knowing that 99 percent of that furlough program was successful.
Lara B. says, "... becoming a hyper-punitive society is a really ineffective way to deter crime."
This may be true, but this conversation isn't just about deterring crime, it's about getting the repeat offender off the streets. As a Libertarian, I abhor filling our prisons with non-violent drug users, who have hurt no one but themselves. Without a victim, there can be no crime. But the violent criminals, who have shown us they're simply non reformable, need to be kept away from law abiding society.
This isn't about deterrence. It's about protecting society.
I'm sorry but for those swayed by facts over manufactured political narratives, this isn't much of a debate. Ms. Bazelon is the quintessential enabler masquerading her virtue, forever playing the race card, a classical liberal coward. Bazelon addresses black on white crime in her broad strokes story and boldly proclaims that such black on white incidents of violence are "statistically rare occurrences" implying that they are greatly exaggerated because of racism and racial animus. Who is she kidding. The FBI website is the most reliable source of crime statistics (see also: Heather McDonalds's book "The War on Cops or John Dilulio Jr.'s article in the City Journal "My Black Crime Problem, and Ours). About 50% of all murders in the U.S. are committed by blacks; blacks commit over 40% of all violent crime, and black on white violent crime exceeds white on black violent crime by a ratio of between 25:1 and 50:1 - In 2018 the Bureau of Justice reported the following numbers under the heading: Interracial Violent Crime Incidents 2018: Black on White: 547,948 - White on Black: 112,365. Additionally, in 2018 the Department of Justice Hate Crime FBI statistics reported that of the 6,266 known hate crime offenders, 53.6 were white and 24% were black. Of course most black people are good and decent law abiding citizens but for decades incidents of black on white violence have been downplayed while incidents of white on black violence exaggerated. This deceit continues today with the drumbeat narrative that the greatest threat to blacks in America comes from white cops and white supremacists with nary a word on the threats to whites and other blacks that black violent crime causes. No, poverty and racism are not the main factors contributing to high and now higher black crime rates. Rather, it is decades of liberal/leftist policies that are to blame; policies that have nurtured dependence, impaired the development of personal responsibility, reinforced victim status, fostered grievance, hopelessness, and rage, and fractured black families; it is these policies that have enabled this heightened level of criminal behavior, and until the people who promote these destructive and divisive narratives are disempowered, it will only get worse. God bless all Americans!
I’d like to ask a question of those here on the Left who legitimately believe (if we have folks who do). What is it about Conservatives/Republicans that you have suddenly decided that our worldview is fascist or white nationalism? I see this slur so damn much and it both saddens and angers me. I remember hearing inklings of this back when W was President but it’s said so much without consequences or evidence these days. Our worldview hasn’t really changed much other than perhaps being far more understanding about gays and lesbians. People seem to forget that even Obama wasn’t for gay marriage until it was politically expedient…In general most of us have been pro law enforcement due to how bad crime can be when it’s not supported. We have mostly believed in strong border enforcement as folks should follow the laws of our country to come here (and be vetted). Many of us have long been Pro Life, for a strong defense and low taxes and regulations. I’m just curious why the belief system we have long had when we would civilly discuss politics is now termed in such ugly terms? I suspect MOST of the liberals here don’t think like this (I pray that I’m right) as this community honestly feels like what America should be.
Fantastic thought provoking and detailed podcast! Well done to the moderation as well
"An individual—usually a man with dark skin—did something horrific to an innocent victim—usually an attractive white woman"
You lose me right there.
The question being asked is "how ought we to keep bad people from doing bad stuff". The answer to that question is 100% race neutral. The skin color of the perp or victim is simply irrelevant. And yet you start there.
To be clear, I think our prison system has a lot of problems. We need to separate who we're "afraid of" from who we're "mad at" and treat them differently. We need to have real reintegration system for prior inmates. As a society, we need to grant grace and forgiveness instead of labelling people an ex-con for life. We need money for mental health across the board. None of which has ANYTHING to do with race.
Left or Right... if you think skin color matters more than behavior, you are a racist. Full stop. And I'm done listening to racists.
"University of San Francisco School of Law" ?
.
An institution that specializes in training attorneys to help support police in protecting our citizens from aggressive, violent criminals?
Bazelon’s assertion that certain kinds of violent crime are rare and that the resulting coverage is therefore frenzied falls short of legitimacy for me. It feels the same when certain commentators say that school shootings are statistically rare. Yes, but so is pedophilia among clergy, airplane engine failure, shark attacks and food poisoning. Yet when an airline has two crashes in a year we consider them to be systemically negligent. Our favorite restaurant becomes a place we would never return. We avoid surfing near the pier at sunrise. And everyone has, or should have, a problem with shuffling reoffending priests around. We take the rarity and act accordingly.
I think what neither is really getting at is the day-to-day brokenness of the prison system. Correctional facilities don’t correct. Why is that? A journalist wiser than me might consider the money involved. Recidivism is a pyramid scheme, it seems. When you are paid by the bed it makes sense to set up the system in a way that correction becomes impossible.
It is primarily black communities that pay the biggest price for keeping repeat violent offenders on the street. The following is a link to Glenn Loury’s interview with Rafael Mangual ... more in depth discussion .
https://open.substack.com/pub/glennloury/p/rafael-mangual-criminal-injustice?r=c5e93&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
Why do you think progressive white people care so little about it.
If their suburban neighborhoods were getting shot up, I doubt they would be so cavalier. But it's easy to virtue signal when you can afford gates and private security.
In many 3rd world countries (Africa I'm familiar with) it's normal for wealthy to have armed private security (essentially private police) with panic buttons while underfunded (public) police departments and do little to stop crime among the poor. Is this where progressives want to take us?
Special event going on NOW - livestream about the global dangers of WHO/WEF attempt to take control and what to do about it, the grave harms caused by the covid shots, & more. Now talking: Rabbi Jonathan Rietti. In 1 hour at 5:30 PM EDT - live with Dr. Pierre Kory MD in NY! Afterwards: Attorneys Thomas Renz and Bobbie Anne Cox. Please join! https://truth613.substack.com/p/critical-livestreamlive-event-this
Recording will G-d willing be posted on my substack afterwards.
The opening sentence of the prefatory comment introducing this constructive dialogue is careless and misleading. Jeff Asher is an expert in crime statistics, having worked at the Pentagon, the CIA and the New Orleans police department. In a recent interview on NPR, Asher points out that the most recent FBI crime statistics, covering 2021, are woefully incomplete since major law enforcement agencies have not yet submitted their statistics. But this much is clear: Property crime has been declining for the past twenty years. Violent crime -- aggravated assault, murder, rape, and robbery, increased in 2020 but remains 30 to 40 percent lower than in the 1990s.
As Asher remarked, with woefully incomplete data available for 2021 ". . . we get a lot of politicians that are saying a lot of things that frequently are based on anecdote or sort of the vibes of the moment," he says. "And we get, then, a lot of misinformation and poor decisions being made in the name of data-less arguments."
But this much can be said about the disturbing increase in gun violence: "It happened in big cities, it happened in small cities. It happened in counties that voted for Trump, it happened in counties that voted for Biden," he says. "It was really everywhere, and so I think that most places in America are grappling with at least some increase in gun violence over the last two years, which brings it to the forefront of these elections as they're taking place now."
https://www.commonsense.news/p/has-criminal-justice-reform-made/comments?utm_source=substack%2Csubstack&publication_id=260347&post_id=80884725&utm_medium=email%2Cemail&isFreemail=false&comments=true
Nearly one in five American households bought a firearm during the pandemic, many were first-time gun owners. 25 states now allow open carry of a firearm without training or a permit. After years of pandemic related restrictions and frustrations, add many thousands of untrained new gun owners packing heat everywhere they go, it's not surprising that we're faced with a spike in gun violence.