Joe - You are better than this. Having many relatives who perished in the Holocaust, via intentional killings of citizens, your words ring both hollow and thoughtless. “This is a company that murdered those 346 people as surely as if it had lined them up against a wall and shot them.” - No, it is not anything like that.
This isn't new. Look at 2008. Dozens of executives of financial institutions committed crimes that lead to the financial crisis. Their auditors (like Ernst and Young where I worked) were implicated. No one went to jail. The why is obvious. Who funds political campaigns?
I couldn't get far in this article. A felony "conviction?" against a corporation doesn't begin to make sense. Once again the people of the united states are taxed via settlement to pay via lawn sprinkler the administrators of our federal "government." I would feel deep shame as a Boeing employee having anything to do with this. That's not me, thankfully, and to be fair I could have been one of them, and likely would have been my own morals for the sake of a paycheck. For my children. We need to stop doing this.
Prosecuting or suing Boeing's executives would require that a court permit what's known as "piercing the corporate veil," something that is much harder said than done, because the main reason for incorporation is to protect individuals from legal liability. Has the author thought about how a prosecutor or plaintiff is to go about piercing the corporate veil? If so, I'd like to hear it.
With over 5000 hours of flight time in Boeings, I can tell you that Boeing did NOT "murder" the people who died in those crashes any more than Airbus "Saved" the people on Flight 1549, aka Miracle on the Hudson. I don't know where you got information on "no pilot error" but the truth is the problem was in the cockpit but it wasn't the design. The core of that design has been in existence since the 60's and to be sure, when it malfunctions, it is incumbent on the pilots to quickly disable the malfunctioning box and fly the aircraft manually. That didn't happen in those crashes. I'm all for corporate accountability for major shenanigans, be they in manufacturing or the banking/investing industry responsible for 2008 economic meltdown, etc. BUT if the product is misused, it's hard to hold the execs legally accountable and piling on withe examples of quality control issues for what they were fined for as a design problem, just isn't fair.
Someone or a number of someones were responsible. A real forensic investigation would figure out exactly what went wrong and who was responsible. And who is the superior who was supposed to also be overseeing that person. Did the rot go all the way to the top? The high level execs should be sweating and the ones who were involved in allowing corner cutting should be losing sleep.
But the top executives are not worried. I know one recently retired high level Boeing executive. She may or may not have had anything to do with the bad things. She had an engineering degree originally, btw, not an accountant or lawyer. She is wealthy, sits on many boards now, lives in a beautiful multi million dollar home and is doing very well. I dont think she is worried at all...Btw, she and her husband consider themselves to be progressive democrats.
When you start convicting Democrats for classified material mishandling, when you prosecute Fauci and the idiot that ran NIH for killing a million Americans and funding the Wuhan Virology lab, when you prosecute the 51 Intelligence Officials that lied about Hunter's laptop at the behest of one of Biden's cabinet members, the Nocera, maybe, your fake rage can be directed against the executives of Boeing...until then, save your outrage for the morons in this country that support Hamas...this article is pure trash...but then, so are you for writing it>>>Fuck off!!
When you start convicting Democrats for classified material mishandling, when you prosecute Fauci and the idiot that ran NIH for killing a million Americans and funding the Wuhan Virology lab, when you prosecute the 51 Intelligence Officials that lied about Hunter's laptop at the behest of one of Biden's cabinet members, the Nocera, maybe, your fake rage can be directed against the executives of Boeing...until then, save your outrage for the morons in this country that support Hamas...this article is pure trash...but then, so are you for writing it>>>Fuck off!!
Manufacturing in the U.S. has suffered since the lawyers and accountants took over. Those who knew how to actually make things were pushed out, making way for those who only care about cutting costs, or the fine print to screw the customers or suppliers. If you don't know how to build an airplane, how can you run a company that builds airplanes?
If the DoJ charges the company, they can get a settlement and a favorable headline (although obviously not from Joe). Current management is willing to settle -- they don't feel personally culpable, and the fine isn't paid with their money.
BUT -- if you seek jail terms for the old management, you won't get a settlement. You'll get a no holds barred fight from well-resourced defendants who don't want to go to jail. And can you really prove culpability beyond a reasonable doubt? The DoJ took the easier path.
Mutatis mutandis, the same argument came up after the 2008 financial crisis, and I think the same explanation applied then.
I've found this a very hard issue to get clear in my mind, but you've nailed from the pragmatist's angle (which happens to be mine). Without proper care, you will get a 'lawyer's picnic' for no public benefit. Who would benefit from that? (Rhetorical question- we know who would benefit).
It's good to know that American justice is fair and proportional. Boing was fined $500 million for killing 346 people in two airplane crashes. Judge Arthur Engoron fined Trump and his sons a total of $464 million (per the Washington Post) for an alleged "fraud" when the "victims" testified they weren't injured. If you're involved in our "justice system," hope your name isn't Trump.
Joe Nocera wildly overstates the case in stating that Boeing "murdered" the passengers on those two flights. Yes, they were negligent. But American and Western European pilots who have encountered that same malfunction reacted in accordance with their training and understanding of the aircraft's systems, disabled the runaway trim, and landed safely at their destinations. Test pilots reproducing the conditions that led to those crashes were likewise easily able to handle the malfunction. In one of those crashes, the same malfunction had occurred on that airplane's previous flight, and the pilot had dealt with it safely, but inexplicably failed to report it to maintenance. So no, Joe (what's with people named Joe this week?), it wasn't murder.
I'm no lawyer, but that's never stopped me: negligence doesn't add up to the intent for murder. You have to have reckless intent; they realised the possibility, but did not intend it.
Yeah, negligence is a long way from intent to kill. Nobody from Boeing said, "Hey, let's design the 737 MAX so it will kill a bunch of people!" You have to be really careful about prosecuting this sort of thing. As long as accidents are treated as accidents, people who were involved in the process will (usually) tell you want happened and what needs to be done to improve it. Once you start throwing around criminal charges, people who could fix the problem will instead shut up and lawyer up. Countries that criminalize accidents generally have poor safety records, for this reason.
No liability accident reporting is the same policy we have in healthcare. As a nurse, we’re asked to report medication errors to help prevent future errors. The problem is there’s been a perfect algorithm in place for decades to prevent errors. We bypass that algorithm for our convenience (laziness) and make errors. We don’t report it because we know it was 100% our fault.
This article made me angry enough to resubscribe so I could comment. There is a reason most of the aircraft that crash are not from first world country airlines. Airlines buy the same planes but second and third world countries do not have the same standards for pilot selection, training and retraining. They do not follow FAA regulations on airplane and engine maintenance. Third world countries are known for trying to bribe maintenance centers to sign off on engines that have not gone through all required inspections and maintenance. I do not have the data for this year but at one time the 737 including the 737 Max was the best selling plane in the world. Statistically you’d expect more issues with the best selling airplane.
There are orders of magnitude more flights of the 737 by 1st world airlines - yet the crashes in question are by 3rd world airlines. Do we see a trend? Use of DEI is undoubtedly causing more problems. Anytime criteria other than excellence is used in hiring and promotion decisions there are going to have more errors. Unfortunately Aircraft and airlines are all in for DEI and that is going to impact safety.
Also someone commented that a problem was moving manufacturing out of Chicago. The headquarters were in Chicago not manufacturing. Most manufacturing has been done in the Seattle region and moving the headquarters to Chicago was probably not a good decision. The facility in Charleston, SC is more recent and used for the 787.
Building aircraft and flying aircraft are highly technical and difficult processes. The move to have more executives not qualified in all aspects in manufacturing is not helpful but that is true throughout US industry as the federal government has inserted itself into all aspects of the business. Managing the federal government requirements that are growing geometrically has become a bigger part of every executive’s job. Less government would probably result in better safety because you would get more executives qualified in the product - not managing the invasive government officials.
A personal experience. I am an engineer and did a plant startup in the former Soviet Union and was there for months. When we were allowed to leave (the KGB held our passports and controlled our movements) we booked the first plane we could get out to any airport in the West. The first flight was on Aeroflot so we took it. Everyone else on the plane was Soviet. When we landed safely everyone in the plane burst into applause. That was what the Soviets who were allowed to travel to the west (party members) thought about their planes and airlines. That is what anyone flying a third world airline should consider because their plane and pilots aren’t any better.
So, only 100 million more than the fine for killing....0.
Joe - You are better than this. Having many relatives who perished in the Holocaust, via intentional killings of citizens, your words ring both hollow and thoughtless. “This is a company that murdered those 346 people as surely as if it had lined them up against a wall and shot them.” - No, it is not anything like that.
This isn't new. Look at 2008. Dozens of executives of financial institutions committed crimes that lead to the financial crisis. Their auditors (like Ernst and Young where I worked) were implicated. No one went to jail. The why is obvious. Who funds political campaigns?
I couldn't get far in this article. A felony "conviction?" against a corporation doesn't begin to make sense. Once again the people of the united states are taxed via settlement to pay via lawn sprinkler the administrators of our federal "government." I would feel deep shame as a Boeing employee having anything to do with this. That's not me, thankfully, and to be fair I could have been one of them, and likely would have been my own morals for the sake of a paycheck. For my children. We need to stop doing this.
Prosecuting or suing Boeing's executives would require that a court permit what's known as "piercing the corporate veil," something that is much harder said than done, because the main reason for incorporation is to protect individuals from legal liability. Has the author thought about how a prosecutor or plaintiff is to go about piercing the corporate veil? If so, I'd like to hear it.
With over 5000 hours of flight time in Boeings, I can tell you that Boeing did NOT "murder" the people who died in those crashes any more than Airbus "Saved" the people on Flight 1549, aka Miracle on the Hudson. I don't know where you got information on "no pilot error" but the truth is the problem was in the cockpit but it wasn't the design. The core of that design has been in existence since the 60's and to be sure, when it malfunctions, it is incumbent on the pilots to quickly disable the malfunctioning box and fly the aircraft manually. That didn't happen in those crashes. I'm all for corporate accountability for major shenanigans, be they in manufacturing or the banking/investing industry responsible for 2008 economic meltdown, etc. BUT if the product is misused, it's hard to hold the execs legally accountable and piling on withe examples of quality control issues for what they were fined for as a design problem, just isn't fair.
Capitalism isn't the problem. Crony capitalism is the problem.
Someone or a number of someones were responsible. A real forensic investigation would figure out exactly what went wrong and who was responsible. And who is the superior who was supposed to also be overseeing that person. Did the rot go all the way to the top? The high level execs should be sweating and the ones who were involved in allowing corner cutting should be losing sleep.
But the top executives are not worried. I know one recently retired high level Boeing executive. She may or may not have had anything to do with the bad things. She had an engineering degree originally, btw, not an accountant or lawyer. She is wealthy, sits on many boards now, lives in a beautiful multi million dollar home and is doing very well. I dont think she is worried at all...Btw, she and her husband consider themselves to be progressive democrats.
When you start convicting Democrats for classified material mishandling, when you prosecute Fauci and the idiot that ran NIH for killing a million Americans and funding the Wuhan Virology lab, when you prosecute the 51 Intelligence Officials that lied about Hunter's laptop at the behest of one of Biden's cabinet members, the Nocera, maybe, your fake rage can be directed against the executives of Boeing...until then, save your outrage for the morons in this country that support Hamas...this article is pure trash...but then, so are you for writing it>>>Fuck off!!
When you start convicting Democrats for classified material mishandling, when you prosecute Fauci and the idiot that ran NIH for killing a million Americans and funding the Wuhan Virology lab, when you prosecute the 51 Intelligence Officials that lied about Hunter's laptop at the behest of one of Biden's cabinet members, the Nocera, maybe, your fake rage can be directed against the executives of Boeing...until then, save your outrage for the morons in this country that support Hamas...this article is pure trash...but then, so are you for writing it>>>Fuck off!!
Manufacturing in the U.S. has suffered since the lawyers and accountants took over. Those who knew how to actually make things were pushed out, making way for those who only care about cutting costs, or the fine print to screw the customers or suppliers. If you don't know how to build an airplane, how can you run a company that builds airplanes?
If the DoJ charges the company, they can get a settlement and a favorable headline (although obviously not from Joe). Current management is willing to settle -- they don't feel personally culpable, and the fine isn't paid with their money.
BUT -- if you seek jail terms for the old management, you won't get a settlement. You'll get a no holds barred fight from well-resourced defendants who don't want to go to jail. And can you really prove culpability beyond a reasonable doubt? The DoJ took the easier path.
Mutatis mutandis, the same argument came up after the 2008 financial crisis, and I think the same explanation applied then.
I've found this a very hard issue to get clear in my mind, but you've nailed from the pragmatist's angle (which happens to be mine). Without proper care, you will get a 'lawyer's picnic' for no public benefit. Who would benefit from that? (Rhetorical question- we know who would benefit).
Er,, isn't Boeing regulated by the FAA? And since the crashes occurred in 2018 and 2019 isn't Trump to blame?
These airlines are from 3 rd world countries and not regulated by the FAA, FYI.
From what I have seen of the US from a distance in the last 4 years .. if you live in a glass house etc etc
It's good to know that American justice is fair and proportional. Boing was fined $500 million for killing 346 people in two airplane crashes. Judge Arthur Engoron fined Trump and his sons a total of $464 million (per the Washington Post) for an alleged "fraud" when the "victims" testified they weren't injured. If you're involved in our "justice system," hope your name isn't Trump.
Joe Nocera wildly overstates the case in stating that Boeing "murdered" the passengers on those two flights. Yes, they were negligent. But American and Western European pilots who have encountered that same malfunction reacted in accordance with their training and understanding of the aircraft's systems, disabled the runaway trim, and landed safely at their destinations. Test pilots reproducing the conditions that led to those crashes were likewise easily able to handle the malfunction. In one of those crashes, the same malfunction had occurred on that airplane's previous flight, and the pilot had dealt with it safely, but inexplicably failed to report it to maintenance. So no, Joe (what's with people named Joe this week?), it wasn't murder.
I'm no lawyer, but that's never stopped me: negligence doesn't add up to the intent for murder. You have to have reckless intent; they realised the possibility, but did not intend it.
Yeah, negligence is a long way from intent to kill. Nobody from Boeing said, "Hey, let's design the 737 MAX so it will kill a bunch of people!" You have to be really careful about prosecuting this sort of thing. As long as accidents are treated as accidents, people who were involved in the process will (usually) tell you want happened and what needs to be done to improve it. Once you start throwing around criminal charges, people who could fix the problem will instead shut up and lawyer up. Countries that criminalize accidents generally have poor safety records, for this reason.
No liability accident reporting is the same policy we have in healthcare. As a nurse, we’re asked to report medication errors to help prevent future errors. The problem is there’s been a perfect algorithm in place for decades to prevent errors. We bypass that algorithm for our convenience (laziness) and make errors. We don’t report it because we know it was 100% our fault.
This article made me angry enough to resubscribe so I could comment. There is a reason most of the aircraft that crash are not from first world country airlines. Airlines buy the same planes but second and third world countries do not have the same standards for pilot selection, training and retraining. They do not follow FAA regulations on airplane and engine maintenance. Third world countries are known for trying to bribe maintenance centers to sign off on engines that have not gone through all required inspections and maintenance. I do not have the data for this year but at one time the 737 including the 737 Max was the best selling plane in the world. Statistically you’d expect more issues with the best selling airplane.
There are orders of magnitude more flights of the 737 by 1st world airlines - yet the crashes in question are by 3rd world airlines. Do we see a trend? Use of DEI is undoubtedly causing more problems. Anytime criteria other than excellence is used in hiring and promotion decisions there are going to have more errors. Unfortunately Aircraft and airlines are all in for DEI and that is going to impact safety.
Also someone commented that a problem was moving manufacturing out of Chicago. The headquarters were in Chicago not manufacturing. Most manufacturing has been done in the Seattle region and moving the headquarters to Chicago was probably not a good decision. The facility in Charleston, SC is more recent and used for the 787.
Building aircraft and flying aircraft are highly technical and difficult processes. The move to have more executives not qualified in all aspects in manufacturing is not helpful but that is true throughout US industry as the federal government has inserted itself into all aspects of the business. Managing the federal government requirements that are growing geometrically has become a bigger part of every executive’s job. Less government would probably result in better safety because you would get more executives qualified in the product - not managing the invasive government officials.
A personal experience. I am an engineer and did a plant startup in the former Soviet Union and was there for months. When we were allowed to leave (the KGB held our passports and controlled our movements) we booked the first plane we could get out to any airport in the West. The first flight was on Aeroflot so we took it. Everyone else on the plane was Soviet. When we landed safely everyone in the plane burst into applause. That was what the Soviets who were allowed to travel to the west (party members) thought about their planes and airlines. That is what anyone flying a third world airline should consider because their plane and pilots aren’t any better.