There are no perfect candidates. But what do you do when both candidates are not just imperfect but deeply flawed, and seen by many as unqualified for the job?
We are just one week away from a presidential election that will decide if the next four years are helmed by Vice President Kamala Harris or former president Donald Trump. I know many people who are still undecided. Some of them work at The Free Press.
These undecided voters have just one presidential debate to reference, and as my friends at Open to Debate said in a Wall Street Journal op-ed: “I can confidently state that we haven’t yet seen a real presidential debate this year. Debates have devolved into political theater, with combative candidates, biased media, agenda-driven moderators, and a fixation on social-media sound bites. This structure fails to deliver the substance voters need.”
So today, we are here without the pageantry, makeup, or muted mics, to host not Trump vs. Kamala—though the invitation is still open—but, instead, two very smart people who represent each side of the choice that we are going to make a week from today.
Sam Harris is a neuroscientist, philosopher, best-selling author, and host of the podcast Making Sense. Today, he will explain why he is voting for Kamala Harris. Sam has spoken passionately and consistently on this issue since Trump came onto the scene; Sam calls him “the most dangerous cult leader on Earth” and highlights Trump’s character flaws. Trump was found liable for sexual abuse; he mocked a disabled reporter; he said John McCain wasn’t a hero; he called veterans “suckers and losers”; if we kept going with examples, we’d be here all day. Sam’s biggest issue is January 6 and Trump’s refusal to commit to a peaceful transfer of power. Sam writes, “The spectacle of a sitting president refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power, culminating in an attack on the Capitol, remains the most shocking violation of political norms to occur in my lifetime.”
On the other side, Ben Shapiro—lawyer, co-founder of The Daily Wire, best-selling author, and host of The Ben Shapiro Show—will explain why he is voting for Donald Trump. Ben argues that we were a better country under Trump and that his policies make us safer and more prosperous. There were no hot wars, no inflation crisis, and less traffic at the southern border with Trump as president. Ben makes the case that Trump will not be abandoned by the experts who advised him during his first administration, and he will delegate responsibilities to capable and trustworthy policymakers. He also argues that Kamala is an “incompetent and unqualified vice president” and that “radicalism defines her.”
I suspect, if you’re listening to this show, you know these two names and have listened to their shows before. It is not an exaggeration to say that Ben and Sam are two of the smartest, most influential, and most insightful voices on the American political scene. That’s one of the reasons we’re so thrilled to host this conversation today. The other is because it’s exactly the kind of conversation we need more of in this country, especially at this moment. I challenge you to think of one debate you heard during this election that was passionate and provocative, but also civil and respectful, between a Trump supporter and a Harris supporter. I can’t think of one. That’s why we put this together. And we really think you’re going to appreciate what you hear.
Click below to watch to our conversation:
To listen, click below—or catch it on the Honestly feed wherever you get your podcasts. Finally, if you prefer to read an edited transcript of the conversation, scroll on.
Bari Weiss: I want to start by setting the table with the most basic and fundamental question, which is giving each of you the opportunity to make your pitch to listeners, which is the question of who you’re voting for and why. Sam, let’s start with you.
Sam Harris: I’m voting for Harris. The truth is I would vote for almost anyone over Trump. I think I would be voting against Trump with more or less anyone because what I want is normal politics.
I happen to be registered as a Democrat, but I would vote for Mitt Romney at this point. I would campaign for Mitt Romney. A normal Republican would be absolutely fine with me. The issue for me is that Trump is the most divisive political figure to appear in my lifetime. Whatever you think of Trump, even if you think he’s great, you can’t deny that he brings out the worst in us. He brings out the worst in both his friends and his enemies.
For all its flaws, the Democratic Party is a normal political party, and the Republican Party is now a cult of personality, which I consider to be actually dangerous. So that’s really my main concern. I don’t think any of this gets better until Trump gets out of politics.
BW: And to just draw a line under it, let’s say the election was between Mitt Romney and Kamala Harris. Would you be voting for Romney or Harris?
SH: I would probably vote for Romney. But that really should not give any indication of how fully I favor Harris over Trump. I’m all-in for Harris. I’ve given her money. I’m going to be honest about what I think her flaws are as a candidate. But, I think Ben and you and I agree about many of the problems in the Democratic Party. And yet I would view a normal Republican as a corrective to that. But I don’t view Trump as a corrective to that. I think everything that Ben and I worry about on the left gets worse under four more years of Trump.
BW: Ben, let’s go to you. Obviously, you’re not voting for Kamala Harris.
Ben Shapiro: I’m coming at this from precisely the opposite point of view. I’ve given money to President Trump. I’ve campaigned with President Trump. I brought President Trump to Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson’s Ohel on October 7th, where he met with hostage families. So I’m very involved in this campaign.
For me, the question is: Were you better off in 2019 or are you better off in 2024? And in 2019, what I got was a solid economy, the best foreign policy of my lifetime, a president whose rhetoric I very often didn’t like but who had made the country stronger in a variety of ways.
In 2024, what I see is an administration that has produced a world that is on fire in a myriad of ways, has produced 40-year highs in inflation, has not, in fact, calmed the waters. I know Sam was talking about normalcy. The reality is that Donald Trump has not been president for the last three and a half years. And not only have we not returned to normalcy, things seem to have gotten significantly worse.
And so the calculation for me is very simple. With all Donald Trump’s flaws, with all of his excesses, Trump was a better president than Kamala Harris would be. Also we have a very robust and durable constitutional system almost built to hem in his flaws and excesses. I get a lot of good policy that I wouldn’t get with Kamala Harris. I get a stronger American presence on the world scene with regard to America’s allies. I get a better economy. And I think it would serve as a corrective to a Democratic Party that seems to have spun out into a world of damaging wokeness. The Democratic Party is either going to force itself further into this sort of left-wing corner, or they’re going to have to moderate and deal with the reality, which is if they lose to Donald Trump twice in three election cycles, there’s something deeply wrong that cannot simply be corrected by swiveling further to the left.