The participants in this debate have lousy credentials of the "Yes" side. You should have used people who are qualified -- such as Jack Hibbs or Greg Laurie.
We need Christianity because we are flawed beings. We sin. We need a belief system that dissuades us from sinning. We need to know we are redeemable. We can be forgiven, we can keep trying. We can believe we are saved.
Believe in Jesus Christ and redemption from sin. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. We are all equal is the eyes of God.
Ross Douthat, New York Times columnist and author of "Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious," talks about the importance of taking faith seriously in a mortal world.
The fact of the matter is that the very distinction of 'religious' and 'non-religious' is a fairly modern (and western, even Christian) invention as Tom Holland has pointed out. Everyone has a worldview- everyone has beliefs and values- and from a secular standpoint they are all just social construct. The problem is that secularists often fail to recognize that their worldview is just another worldview.
Religion simply affirms sanity. The possibility of meaning and truth. The Protestant revolution was a disaster. The secularization of the imposed French Revolution led to the first and second World Wars. God is present to us in the sacraments Christ Himself instituted. We are about free willed rational beings in universe moved by what Aquinas nailed as Final Cause. We are literally moved by love , for love. Why we love music and peace and the laugh of a child. Dump the idiotic scientism which provides factoids, not meaning or depth. Read philosophers Peter Kreeft or Ed Feser and rediscover sanity.
I think religion (and spirituality!) is overall a good thing. It can be one of the very best things. But it can't be imposed. And we have to be honest with ourselves: the way it's addressed and presented rarely meets the intellectual hunger.
Think of internet atheism, which peaked 2008-2012. The "gotcha" smugness of it all (which I, among others, happily cheered and bought into.) It's a little like telling people you think love is for babies––it's an attempt to make yourself stronger, but also, buddy: you're fleeing from love?
I believe that a lot of people reject religion because they think they're too smart for it, because the religion they were taught in passing is for children: the God of "because I said so." It's easier to shirk, to sneer, and then to wonder why you feel empty.
Personally, I think C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" is one of the best religious texts ever written. It's smart, serious, thoughtful, human and interesting. It's also personal, in the age of personal connections. Eckhart Toole's "The Power of Now" is another terrific religious text, disguised as something else.
Any appeal to religion should begin with love. But I think intellectual rigor is the name of the game.
Read philosopher Peter Kreeft if you want some actual intellectual rigor. Since the 1400's we've been in the idiocy of nominalism, empiricism and Descartes forgetting about the objects of his "cogito". We are philosophical illiterates in the west.
The cults of wokeness and MAGAism are two example of toxic 'religions'. One is more pagan with influencer gods, the other feigns worship to an old dead hippie guru but its real god is fat and orange. Both require obsessive fealty, unquestioning acceptance and they deal with Unbelievers harshly.
Traditional religion can work, but with boundaries. Humans need them, which the secular cults don't offer, but religions famously then draw too many in an effort to consolidate power for someone or some group of people.
I do not need to go to the debate. Your intro story and my personal beliefs convince me that we need a religious revival. So many lost and lonely people would not feel lost and lonely if they found a religious community.
If a religion is about inventing God, then why? And if a religion is about discovering God, then how?
The majority of Western Christianity believes that it resides within the first question, and answers: "Because it is utilitarian and therapeutic".
The Christianity of my heritage believes that it is answering the second question, and believes this to be so in large part because Christianity dares to make its case in the world of the falsifiable.
(Oh, and on edit: the "pro" side of the debate will be answering the question by the standard of the first question. And they will, thereby, lose the debate)
As professors Ed Feser and Peter Kreeft both show ,the existence of God is demonstrable by reason alone from evidence. Modern materialist philosophical roots are what stupid means. Check out these guys We're brain dead in the west.
Thank you for your kind invitations to join the community of your Church. I understand that a requirement for membership is Faith or Belief in God, his son and the Holy Ghost, but there’s the rub. I am a realist which means that I cannot believe without proof. (Yes, I know that Japan exists even though I’ve never been there to prove it). You would probably say that the Holy Bible is proof of God’s existence because it is the Word of God.
I would reply that the Bible is a very fine book full of history and wisdom but it is written by men. It is, in fact, a compilation of writings, gospels and epistles edited by someone or a committee of people who excluded the apocrypha. There are many who believe that at least the first 5 books, the Pentateuch or Torah, were written by God, dictated to Moses on Mount Sinai. But Biblical scholars since the 19th century have identified several different styles of writing, and two different versions of the creation and the flood are included, showing that Genesis is an edited book where different writings have been woven together, perhaps by Ezra.
You probably feel sorry for me that I do not have religion in my life to give me comfort and joy, and reassurance of an afterlife. But I have no illusions about heaven or hell, (let alone the physical enjoyment of 72 virgins). I do not scorn the feeling you experience, of spiritual fulfilment when you worship and pray. I am happy for you. I too can experience spiritual uplift when I attend a performance of Cosi Fan Tutte or spend a few hours in the National Gallery in London or the Prado in Madrid.
What you are missing is the sense of redemption and forgiveness. We are fallen beings, and without assurance of a loving God and forgiveness of sin, why would we not all devolve into amoral evil beings? Doesn’t that tend to happen in societies devoid of a sense of God and his redemption?
Actually you're probably just another western philosophical illiterate as professors Ed Feser and Peter Kreeft show. You're a victim of modern mindless materialism not a concern for reason.
This only confirms my opinion of the hypocrisy of religion. Another of your comments says “We are literally moved by love, for love.” I see no love in your response, only anger and bitterness.
Wow, a whole big debate just because a bunch of religious people don't understand the fallacy of "Post hoc, ergo procter hoc." They assume that since A) religion has become less popular and concurently B) people are less happy, that A must have therefore *CAUSED* B. It couldn't be any one of the billion other factors, oh nooooo. Nope, to them correlation absolutely implies causation. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with dirty slimeball politicians, greedy global megacorporations and billionaire playboys, fascism, racism, or climate change, income inequality, any of those things. Nope, the only thing it can be is that people growing out of ancient mythology and fairly tales somehow makes those fairy tales more likely to be true. Yeah, that must be it. It's like saying "ever since abortion was legalized, toothpaste sales have gone up"¡
"Philosophical illiteracy." ?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 OK, Mr. Arrogant - what, exactly, do you believe I'm ignorant about? I only have a humble bachelor's degree in philosophy (and one in English), plus 30 more years of additional study. What are YOUR qualifications? Insulting your betters on the internet doesn't count. I'd say the illiterate one is you, since 12 words is all you can manage.
Long Overdue & very Necessary to save our countries
"Would the crisis of meaning in our society be alleviated if people turned back to religion?" Yes, 100%
"Why, in an age of unprecedented prosperity, are so many of us so unhappy?"
Many (not all) people, once they become wealthy, begin to feel Invincible. They feel like nothing can hurt them. They feel like they don't "need" anyone else, they don't depend on anyone and they can treat others badly. They feel that they themselves created all their successes, without attributing success to God. That is why many (not all) wealthy people are extremely unhappy.
I work in Juvenile Hall and I can say absolutely we need a religious revival-- at least for the young people. The kids I work with are broken and they have no parents to rely on-- it's mostly their "homies" and their gangs. They talk about murder and death in such a nonchalant way. They talk about smash & grab and arson and burglary in casual ways. The girls who have been sex trafficked talk about their "dates"-- and how much money they make. On occasion, I see some with Bibles and I ask who gave them to them. Usually it's a grandma. Or sometimes a Catholic nun comes into the facility or a Protestant minister and they give them booklets for prayer. One kid said to me that he prays every night because he's all alone and he only has God.
The participants in this debate have lousy credentials of the "Yes" side. You should have used people who are qualified -- such as Jack Hibbs or Greg Laurie.
We need Christianity because we are flawed beings. We sin. We need a belief system that dissuades us from sinning. We need to know we are redeemable. We can be forgiven, we can keep trying. We can believe we are saved.
Believe in Jesus Christ and redemption from sin. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. We are all equal is the eyes of God.
It’s so simple, but also so hard.
Andrew Klavan
The Case For Religious Belief | Ross Douthat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi3sdHrkE5M
Jan. 15 2025 #DailyWire #AndrewKlavan #Religion
PreBorn! - Help save babies from abortion and donate today at https://preborn.com/KLAVAN
Ross Douthat, New York Times columnist and author of "Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious," talks about the importance of taking faith seriously in a mortal world.
The fact of the matter is that the very distinction of 'religious' and 'non-religious' is a fairly modern (and western, even Christian) invention as Tom Holland has pointed out. Everyone has a worldview- everyone has beliefs and values- and from a secular standpoint they are all just social construct. The problem is that secularists often fail to recognize that their worldview is just another worldview.
Religion simply affirms sanity. The possibility of meaning and truth. The Protestant revolution was a disaster. The secularization of the imposed French Revolution led to the first and second World Wars. God is present to us in the sacraments Christ Himself instituted. We are about free willed rational beings in universe moved by what Aquinas nailed as Final Cause. We are literally moved by love , for love. Why we love music and peace and the laugh of a child. Dump the idiotic scientism which provides factoids, not meaning or depth. Read philosophers Peter Kreeft or Ed Feser and rediscover sanity.
The government can give you the freedom of speech and worship. You impose the fear and want on yourself, and no amount of government can relieve it.
So, bummed I can't go!! Hope they record this one too!
I think religion (and spirituality!) is overall a good thing. It can be one of the very best things. But it can't be imposed. And we have to be honest with ourselves: the way it's addressed and presented rarely meets the intellectual hunger.
Think of internet atheism, which peaked 2008-2012. The "gotcha" smugness of it all (which I, among others, happily cheered and bought into.) It's a little like telling people you think love is for babies––it's an attempt to make yourself stronger, but also, buddy: you're fleeing from love?
I believe that a lot of people reject religion because they think they're too smart for it, because the religion they were taught in passing is for children: the God of "because I said so." It's easier to shirk, to sneer, and then to wonder why you feel empty.
Personally, I think C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" is one of the best religious texts ever written. It's smart, serious, thoughtful, human and interesting. It's also personal, in the age of personal connections. Eckhart Toole's "The Power of Now" is another terrific religious text, disguised as something else.
Any appeal to religion should begin with love. But I think intellectual rigor is the name of the game.
Read philosopher Peter Kreeft if you want some actual intellectual rigor. Since the 1400's we've been in the idiocy of nominalism, empiricism and Descartes forgetting about the objects of his "cogito". We are philosophical illiterates in the west.
The cults of wokeness and MAGAism are two example of toxic 'religions'. One is more pagan with influencer gods, the other feigns worship to an old dead hippie guru but its real god is fat and orange. Both require obsessive fealty, unquestioning acceptance and they deal with Unbelievers harshly.
Traditional religion can work, but with boundaries. Humans need them, which the secular cults don't offer, but religions famously then draw too many in an effort to consolidate power for someone or some group of people.
Will FIRE be recorded? Published here?
I do not need to go to the debate. Your intro story and my personal beliefs convince me that we need a religious revival. So many lost and lonely people would not feel lost and lonely if they found a religious community.
If a religion is about inventing God, then why? And if a religion is about discovering God, then how?
The majority of Western Christianity believes that it resides within the first question, and answers: "Because it is utilitarian and therapeutic".
The Christianity of my heritage believes that it is answering the second question, and believes this to be so in large part because Christianity dares to make its case in the world of the falsifiable.
(Oh, and on edit: the "pro" side of the debate will be answering the question by the standard of the first question. And they will, thereby, lose the debate)
As professors Ed Feser and Peter Kreeft both show ,the existence of God is demonstrable by reason alone from evidence. Modern materialist philosophical roots are what stupid means. Check out these guys We're brain dead in the west.
Dear followers of Jesus Christ,
Thank you for your kind invitations to join the community of your Church. I understand that a requirement for membership is Faith or Belief in God, his son and the Holy Ghost, but there’s the rub. I am a realist which means that I cannot believe without proof. (Yes, I know that Japan exists even though I’ve never been there to prove it). You would probably say that the Holy Bible is proof of God’s existence because it is the Word of God.
I would reply that the Bible is a very fine book full of history and wisdom but it is written by men. It is, in fact, a compilation of writings, gospels and epistles edited by someone or a committee of people who excluded the apocrypha. There are many who believe that at least the first 5 books, the Pentateuch or Torah, were written by God, dictated to Moses on Mount Sinai. But Biblical scholars since the 19th century have identified several different styles of writing, and two different versions of the creation and the flood are included, showing that Genesis is an edited book where different writings have been woven together, perhaps by Ezra.
You probably feel sorry for me that I do not have religion in my life to give me comfort and joy, and reassurance of an afterlife. But I have no illusions about heaven or hell, (let alone the physical enjoyment of 72 virgins). I do not scorn the feeling you experience, of spiritual fulfilment when you worship and pray. I am happy for you. I too can experience spiritual uplift when I attend a performance of Cosi Fan Tutte or spend a few hours in the National Gallery in London or the Prado in Madrid.
What you are missing is the sense of redemption and forgiveness. We are fallen beings, and without assurance of a loving God and forgiveness of sin, why would we not all devolve into amoral evil beings? Doesn’t that tend to happen in societies devoid of a sense of God and his redemption?
Actually you're probably just another western philosophical illiterate as professors Ed Feser and Peter Kreeft show. You're a victim of modern mindless materialism not a concern for reason.
This only confirms my opinion of the hypocrisy of religion. Another of your comments says “We are literally moved by love, for love.” I see no love in your response, only anger and bitterness.
Wow, a whole big debate just because a bunch of religious people don't understand the fallacy of "Post hoc, ergo procter hoc." They assume that since A) religion has become less popular and concurently B) people are less happy, that A must have therefore *CAUSED* B. It couldn't be any one of the billion other factors, oh nooooo. Nope, to them correlation absolutely implies causation. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with dirty slimeball politicians, greedy global megacorporations and billionaire playboys, fascism, racism, or climate change, income inequality, any of those things. Nope, the only thing it can be is that people growing out of ancient mythology and fairly tales somehow makes those fairy tales more likely to be true. Yeah, that must be it. It's like saying "ever since abortion was legalized, toothpaste sales have gone up"¡
Good isn't concerned with anyone's happiness.
Your philosophical illiteracy is showing. The core problem in the west. Illiterates.
"Philosophical illiteracy." ?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 OK, Mr. Arrogant - what, exactly, do you believe I'm ignorant about? I only have a humble bachelor's degree in philosophy (and one in English), plus 30 more years of additional study. What are YOUR qualifications? Insulting your betters on the internet doesn't count. I'd say the illiterate one is you, since 12 words is all you can manage.
100% the West Needs a Religious Revival.
Long Overdue & very Necessary to save our countries
"Would the crisis of meaning in our society be alleviated if people turned back to religion?" Yes, 100%
"Why, in an age of unprecedented prosperity, are so many of us so unhappy?"
Many (not all) people, once they become wealthy, begin to feel Invincible. They feel like nothing can hurt them. They feel like they don't "need" anyone else, they don't depend on anyone and they can treat others badly. They feel that they themselves created all their successes, without attributing success to God. That is why many (not all) wealthy people are extremely unhappy.
I work in Juvenile Hall and I can say absolutely we need a religious revival-- at least for the young people. The kids I work with are broken and they have no parents to rely on-- it's mostly their "homies" and their gangs. They talk about murder and death in such a nonchalant way. They talk about smash & grab and arson and burglary in casual ways. The girls who have been sex trafficked talk about their "dates"-- and how much money they make. On occasion, I see some with Bibles and I ask who gave them to them. Usually it's a grandma. Or sometimes a Catholic nun comes into the facility or a Protestant minister and they give them booklets for prayer. One kid said to me that he prays every night because he's all alone and he only has God.