I deleted the initial message, as I don’t want it to be taken the wrong way, and certainly don’t want to offend the AA community. I definitely don’t think all people in AA are weak dependents, but I do believe that AA can take away some of the personal responsibility and makes some believe that they’re forever powerless against alcohol. …
I deleted the initial message, as I don’t want it to be taken the wrong way, and certainly don’t want to offend the AA community. I definitely don’t think all people in AA are weak dependents, but I do believe that AA can take away some of the personal responsibility and makes some believe that they’re forever powerless against alcohol. I know I certainly was when I arrived at treatment. But I was until I wasn’t - for me, about 16 days in to it, I could feel a shift. I could feel myself starting to gain the upper hand the wrestling match. It would be a few years before I was fully confident, but it had begun. I’ve attended meetings where the old heads would lecture (borderline yell) at the newly sober group about how if not for their meeting, their group, and their daily attendance, they’d be face down in a gutter in no time flat. And I believe that they believed this. I also think this is among the reasons so many AA loyalists struggled mightily - even with years of sobriety under their belts - during Covid. I think AA has helped millions of people, saved countless lives along the way. So yes, it does work if you work it. I also think you can still drive a Model-T across the country and do it on mostly unpaved roads. That’s how it used to be done. But I also believe there are better ways now. That’s all. As for the always growing rehab industry, I’ve seen awful things from some of the most reputable places. Egregious, unforgettable and unforgivable stuff. I’ve seen friends get roped in to it, as they’ll gladly exploit newly sober people with few options to keep on staying there and work for almost nothing. And I know what I saw and went through at the very place that I credit with getting me sober - a very high-end, high profile, Bay Area rehab. Disgusting practices. They’re predatory businesses, not medical care facilities. They want you to stay and pay for another month, not stay sober.
THANK YOU Patrick for your very thoughtful response and I don't disagree with any of it. Some of the old timers do get aggressive with how they share and when they talk that way I feel very uncomfortable. However, I'll hear the next person share that they needed exactly that kind of approach from someone to get their attention. My sponsor used to tell me to not judge what others share because, while it may not appeal to me, it might be exactly what some other person in that room needs to hear. That also speaks to something in AA that is incredibly important. Finding a healthy, knowledgeable sponsor and group. My counselor told me to try different meetings and different meeting times to find a healthy, helpful group of members. I often see people go to one meeting and judge the entire AA organization by that experience. I get passionate about standing up for AA and 12 steps because it's been the approach I've seen work for most people long term. I also know that nobody goes to AA because they want to. However, if they stick it out and are open to the process they end of extremely grateful for being a member of AA. I also advocate for AA and 12 Step meetings because they are all over the world and available 24 hours a day. It's also FREE which is so important since treatment is often so expensive. Finally, since 12 steps is focused
I also agree with the concerns about some of the treatment organizations being questionable and doing unethical things. However, I do think most of them are trying to do good, especially the staff members that are in the trenches with the patients while they are there. I also know how expensive it is to keep a treatment facility operating so I understand their focus on bringing money in. I often got upset with a facility I worked at because they were so focused on keeping patients at the facility since they were basically a paying customer. My supervisor knew my frustrations so they had a very honest meeting with me. They explained that we were barely keeping the doors open and how it would be unfortunate if we ended up having to close. Especially since we were one of the few Medicaid providers.
I'm very happy that you are free from addiction. Let's both keep it that way.
Would you really say that anyone who chooses the AA route is "free from addiction"? My personal experience with it is that AA teaches, based on reality, that it's a daily struggle no matter how many years sober someone is.
Absolutely and some people don't come to many AA meetings after they have been sober for a while. The way I look at and it says in the big book is that we are "recovered" as long as we are taking care of our recovery and our overall emotional and/or spiritual health. I haven't wanted to drink in 15+ years so I'd say yes, I am free from my alcohol addiction. However, I want to stay in recovery not so I don't drink again but because the AA program helps me grow and I bring value to myself and the people around me. If I don't continue my program to expand my mental health, emotional health and spiritual connection then I can get to a point where a drink sounds like a nice break from reality and an escape.
I continue to go to meetings and focus on my personal recovery so I can be there to help others That gives me a way to turn my alcoholism into a positive and a way to encourage and support new people instead of a curse that caused me and my loved ones pain in the past. Plus, people were in the meetings when I first started and they helped me so now it's my opportunity to show up for others and give back.
I can see what you mean, and I agree with you. This point is among my list of issues with AA. But Kelly also points out a list of pretty concrete positives from AA. I went to meetings everyday for my first 30 days, and off and on for awhile after. Ultimately, I found that AA wasn’t for me, but I found my groove and my way to stay sober. I still drop in to meetings from time to time, and I am always glad to take people to their first few meetings, get them in the door and comfortable with a group going through the struggles of staying sober. Perhaps for some it really is a day-to-day struggle, forever. Perhaps I’m fortunate that this ultimately wasn’t the case for me. If there was a clear roadmap to beat alcoholism that worked for everyone, someone would’ve printed and made themselves rich from it. Everyone has a different path.
I deleted the initial message, as I don’t want it to be taken the wrong way, and certainly don’t want to offend the AA community. I definitely don’t think all people in AA are weak dependents, but I do believe that AA can take away some of the personal responsibility and makes some believe that they’re forever powerless against alcohol. I know I certainly was when I arrived at treatment. But I was until I wasn’t - for me, about 16 days in to it, I could feel a shift. I could feel myself starting to gain the upper hand the wrestling match. It would be a few years before I was fully confident, but it had begun. I’ve attended meetings where the old heads would lecture (borderline yell) at the newly sober group about how if not for their meeting, their group, and their daily attendance, they’d be face down in a gutter in no time flat. And I believe that they believed this. I also think this is among the reasons so many AA loyalists struggled mightily - even with years of sobriety under their belts - during Covid. I think AA has helped millions of people, saved countless lives along the way. So yes, it does work if you work it. I also think you can still drive a Model-T across the country and do it on mostly unpaved roads. That’s how it used to be done. But I also believe there are better ways now. That’s all. As for the always growing rehab industry, I’ve seen awful things from some of the most reputable places. Egregious, unforgettable and unforgivable stuff. I’ve seen friends get roped in to it, as they’ll gladly exploit newly sober people with few options to keep on staying there and work for almost nothing. And I know what I saw and went through at the very place that I credit with getting me sober - a very high-end, high profile, Bay Area rehab. Disgusting practices. They’re predatory businesses, not medical care facilities. They want you to stay and pay for another month, not stay sober.
THANK YOU Patrick for your very thoughtful response and I don't disagree with any of it. Some of the old timers do get aggressive with how they share and when they talk that way I feel very uncomfortable. However, I'll hear the next person share that they needed exactly that kind of approach from someone to get their attention. My sponsor used to tell me to not judge what others share because, while it may not appeal to me, it might be exactly what some other person in that room needs to hear. That also speaks to something in AA that is incredibly important. Finding a healthy, knowledgeable sponsor and group. My counselor told me to try different meetings and different meeting times to find a healthy, helpful group of members. I often see people go to one meeting and judge the entire AA organization by that experience. I get passionate about standing up for AA and 12 steps because it's been the approach I've seen work for most people long term. I also know that nobody goes to AA because they want to. However, if they stick it out and are open to the process they end of extremely grateful for being a member of AA. I also advocate for AA and 12 Step meetings because they are all over the world and available 24 hours a day. It's also FREE which is so important since treatment is often so expensive. Finally, since 12 steps is focused
I also agree with the concerns about some of the treatment organizations being questionable and doing unethical things. However, I do think most of them are trying to do good, especially the staff members that are in the trenches with the patients while they are there. I also know how expensive it is to keep a treatment facility operating so I understand their focus on bringing money in. I often got upset with a facility I worked at because they were so focused on keeping patients at the facility since they were basically a paying customer. My supervisor knew my frustrations so they had a very honest meeting with me. They explained that we were barely keeping the doors open and how it would be unfortunate if we ended up having to close. Especially since we were one of the few Medicaid providers.
I'm very happy that you are free from addiction. Let's both keep it that way.
Kelly
AA works - still working - for Anthony Hopkins
Would you really say that anyone who chooses the AA route is "free from addiction"? My personal experience with it is that AA teaches, based on reality, that it's a daily struggle no matter how many years sober someone is.
Absolutely and some people don't come to many AA meetings after they have been sober for a while. The way I look at and it says in the big book is that we are "recovered" as long as we are taking care of our recovery and our overall emotional and/or spiritual health. I haven't wanted to drink in 15+ years so I'd say yes, I am free from my alcohol addiction. However, I want to stay in recovery not so I don't drink again but because the AA program helps me grow and I bring value to myself and the people around me. If I don't continue my program to expand my mental health, emotional health and spiritual connection then I can get to a point where a drink sounds like a nice break from reality and an escape.
I continue to go to meetings and focus on my personal recovery so I can be there to help others That gives me a way to turn my alcoholism into a positive and a way to encourage and support new people instead of a curse that caused me and my loved ones pain in the past. Plus, people were in the meetings when I first started and they helped me so now it's my opportunity to show up for others and give back.
I can see what you mean, and I agree with you. This point is among my list of issues with AA. But Kelly also points out a list of pretty concrete positives from AA. I went to meetings everyday for my first 30 days, and off and on for awhile after. Ultimately, I found that AA wasn’t for me, but I found my groove and my way to stay sober. I still drop in to meetings from time to time, and I am always glad to take people to their first few meetings, get them in the door and comfortable with a group going through the struggles of staying sober. Perhaps for some it really is a day-to-day struggle, forever. Perhaps I’m fortunate that this ultimately wasn’t the case for me. If there was a clear roadmap to beat alcoholism that worked for everyone, someone would’ve printed and made themselves rich from it. Everyone has a different path.