It has been unfortunate to see the immigration issue become such a pervasive problem to which so very few want to approach with common sense and the desire to fix a very real problem in a credible way. The back and forth between the Right and Left, with one side engaging in histrionic and the other refusing to acknowledge there's even a problem, is allowing the problem to compound itself.
Start by enforcing the current set of rules as written. Get the US military to secure the borders north and south. Only legal immigration and limited asylum when there are intermediary countries. Period. It's easy. Just need the will to do it. Any NGO, church, group, private company or citizen that is involved in illegal immigration by transporting or harboring should be charged and shut down immediately. You just have to want to. Period.
It's not a "broken Immigration system" It's clearly federal agencies excises for breaking the law of the land. It's sad the Free Press keeps promoting the Beltway lie.
Isn’t immigration a bath problem? We figure out how many immigrants we need to keep the economy strong and that’s how many are allow in. Seems simple to me.
And even if we disagree on the numbers, no one should support porn borders. There has to be some control.
This entire conversation is plagued by the refusal of one side to acknowledge the vast differences between illegal border crossers and LEGAL immigration. Liberal love to conflate the two so they can claim how wonderful immigration. I don't know anyone who opposes legal immigration. The 2 interlocutors are speaking about completely different demographics. What a waste of time.
Interesting yet ultimately unsatisfying. Yada yada yada. What is to be done? Nada. The status quo is too precious to each party. There has been zero movement toward compromise that would establish a secure border, legalize temporary work visas and establishing the criteria for citizenship for the people already here. It would seem that the uncontrolled border and the numbers streaming over it are going to present problems for local governments and require accommodations for the immigrants and especially their children. This a global problem and we are going to be sucked into a fractured culture if we don't get a handle on who is coming, who are the good people already here and who are the bad actors who have to go.
Step 1: Secure the southern border. This is absolutely within the capabilities of the United States of America. There is no point going to additional steps until Step 1 is at least well underway. You wouldn't start fixing water damage in the house until you fixed the leak in the roof, right?
Step 2: Announce amnesty and assistance to return illegal aliens to their country of origin for a designated period like three months. After that, deportations.
Step 3: Institute a normal guest worker program where people can apply online from anywhere and get a visa in advance (this would be based on US labor needs). Keep 10% of guest workers' wages in escrow (interest bearing) to be remitted when the guest worker presents himself / herself to exit or renew the visa.
After 5 years working in the US with no legal problems, "Green Card" / Permanent Residency is earned.
Trump's immigration rhetoric was crazy but that didn't mean there wasn't a legitimate problem, and it clearly resonated with a lot of people. Then it was politicized, the left wouldn't hear of it, and here we are. It's just getting worse and we've made it a political lightning rod so we can't do anything other than more rhetoric and political theatre. Nice work everyone.
The ("woke" cultural) "left's" immigration rhetoric was crazy going back to Obama.
The "woke" cultural-left's ideology is based on the rejection of REALITY.
The "woke" cultural-left's rejection of REALITY is necessary for them to advocate for their postmodernist ideology that "everything is a construct" (including borders and sane thought).
The "right" politicized the border and immigration to get votes from working class populists and traditionalists, but at least those people understand REALITY, unlike the "woke" cultural-left.
The "woke" cultural-left are just puppets of global finance and digital capitalism/oligarchs.
The goal of the globalists is to force industrial capitalism and the industrial working classes into global Neo-Feudalism. (see Joel Kotkin)
What I found after studying this issue for almost twelve years is that it's rare (almost never) that an illegal alien who kills someone didn't have prior convictions or prior charges beforehand. So not only were they in the country illegally but the opportunity to deport them was ignored.
In my son's case the killers wife was given a deportation order in 2006. She never showed up and in four years no one ever looked for her. (She was living in walking distance from an ICE office which is the same address they had for her.) Had she been deported the collision never would have happened. Even had he stayed he wouldn't have been going to parenting class when he collided with my son.
Our handling of the illegal immigration issue has been a national disgrace by Congress and every president since 1986. Trump as well. Not as bad as the rest as at least he spoke out against it. Biden's actions have been criminal and quite possibly treasonous.
Donna's Irish ancestors could have benefited from some mindset training, perhaps, and stayed where they came from? Or is that rude to ask? I also spent many years getting educated in immigration by helping asylum seekers and refugees. Their lives were just slightly more difficult than having to pick up your purse before you go potty, as touching as that is for a reason to emigrate. After being persecuted and tortured, so many of them had severe PTSD, for instance, and their coping mechanism often was to work a lot, as in shitty jobs for which they were overqualified back home. In contrast to the innumerable people who are called veterans collecting life pensions and never even saw combat and the successive generations of general welfare chiselers. Then there's the illegal Mexicans I sometimes hire, who know how to work hard with their hands, like my parents taught me, and who aren't already baked on weed when they show up in the morning like a lot of white guys in the area. So who do you think I feel more kinship for? It's funny how the poverty mentality is ingrained in so many people who were born here but everyone commenting seems to believe it came here with us more recent immigrants.
All that having been stated, reasonable restrictions on immigration are necessary but unachievable between the hard left and the hard right represented here. Hence we don't even invite the left to the discussion, but a libertarian, and then go into well rehearsed rants instead of having the slightest interest in advancing an argument for why he's wrong. In the midst of all that, Donna's the expert. Attitude is everything when you don't have a pot to piss in. Good luck and let me know how it goes with pulling the identitarian ancestry card for claiming citizenship elsewhere.
Left-libertarians and the actual "left" agree on "open borders", but their justifications and definitions are a little different.
They are both insane and irrelevant.
Most people's Irish ancestors (as other non-WASP ethnic groups) were allowed in because of the need to populate the frontier, build railroads, work in factories and mines, etc.
America, the United States, simply cannot become the receptacle for all the citizens of all the failed states in the world. They’re simply not our responsibility. U.S. immigration policies should benefit, ah, the citizens of the U.S. While on a personal level I sympathize with many of these people, the current open border will destroy our country and erase the very reasons people want to come here.
Love it 😍 I AM a Zionist! What are you, except abusive (& repetitive?) ok this has been so much fun, but I have to get back to real life so you’re going to have spew your hatred to yourself now. Have a beautiful day 🌈
Your psychosis and ignorance were evident early on when you made the grotesque, idiotic FLUB saying Carter was a PEANUT FARMER that knew NOTHING ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY.
You are a fake, and a bad one. Your INCOMPETENCE (even as a TROLL) is appalling.
You are a malicious sociopath, presumably hired by some vile, toxic AIPAC or other Zionist TROLL FARM.
You have ZERO CREDIBILITY and ZERO AUTHENTICITY.
Your gross hypocrisy and stupid moral posturing are nothing but classic TROLL SCRIPT RHETORIC.
-----------------
(Adapted from "Toxic Leftist Rhetorical Structure")
[web search Rabbi Michael Lerner death threats tikkun.org]
Like insane extremists on the "left", violent ULTRA ZIONIST extremists seem to have some kind of severe brain dysfunction that makes it extremely challenging to process facts and evidence from a logical, objective, rational, systematic perspective, especially when facts and evidence contradict their emotive, tribalistic, mythic narrative.
It has been unfortunate to see the immigration issue become such a pervasive problem to which so very few want to approach with common sense and the desire to fix a very real problem in a credible way. The back and forth between the Right and Left, with one side engaging in histrionic and the other refusing to acknowledge there's even a problem, is allowing the problem to compound itself.
Start by enforcing the current set of rules as written. Get the US military to secure the borders north and south. Only legal immigration and limited asylum when there are intermediary countries. Period. It's easy. Just need the will to do it. Any NGO, church, group, private company or citizen that is involved in illegal immigration by transporting or harboring should be charged and shut down immediately. You just have to want to. Period.
It's not a "broken Immigration system" It's clearly federal agencies excises for breaking the law of the land. It's sad the Free Press keeps promoting the Beltway lie.
Isn’t immigration a bath problem? We figure out how many immigrants we need to keep the economy strong and that’s how many are allow in. Seems simple to me.
And even if we disagree on the numbers, no one should support porn borders. There has to be some control.
This entire conversation is plagued by the refusal of one side to acknowledge the vast differences between illegal border crossers and LEGAL immigration. Liberal love to conflate the two so they can claim how wonderful immigration. I don't know anyone who opposes legal immigration. The 2 interlocutors are speaking about completely different demographics. What a waste of time.
Interesting yet ultimately unsatisfying. Yada yada yada. What is to be done? Nada. The status quo is too precious to each party. There has been zero movement toward compromise that would establish a secure border, legalize temporary work visas and establishing the criteria for citizenship for the people already here. It would seem that the uncontrolled border and the numbers streaming over it are going to present problems for local governments and require accommodations for the immigrants and especially their children. This a global problem and we are going to be sucked into a fractured culture if we don't get a handle on who is coming, who are the good people already here and who are the bad actors who have to go.
Step 1: Secure the southern border. This is absolutely within the capabilities of the United States of America. There is no point going to additional steps until Step 1 is at least well underway. You wouldn't start fixing water damage in the house until you fixed the leak in the roof, right?
Step 2: Announce amnesty and assistance to return illegal aliens to their country of origin for a designated period like three months. After that, deportations.
Step 3: Institute a normal guest worker program where people can apply online from anywhere and get a visa in advance (this would be based on US labor needs). Keep 10% of guest workers' wages in escrow (interest bearing) to be remitted when the guest worker presents himself / herself to exit or renew the visa.
After 5 years working in the US with no legal problems, "Green Card" / Permanent Residency is earned.
Trump's immigration rhetoric was crazy but that didn't mean there wasn't a legitimate problem, and it clearly resonated with a lot of people. Then it was politicized, the left wouldn't hear of it, and here we are. It's just getting worse and we've made it a political lightning rod so we can't do anything other than more rhetoric and political theatre. Nice work everyone.
The ("woke" cultural) "left's" immigration rhetoric was crazy going back to Obama.
The "woke" cultural-left's ideology is based on the rejection of REALITY.
The "woke" cultural-left's rejection of REALITY is necessary for them to advocate for their postmodernist ideology that "everything is a construct" (including borders and sane thought).
The "right" politicized the border and immigration to get votes from working class populists and traditionalists, but at least those people understand REALITY, unlike the "woke" cultural-left.
The "woke" cultural-left are just puppets of global finance and digital capitalism/oligarchs.
The goal of the globalists is to force industrial capitalism and the industrial working classes into global Neo-Feudalism. (see Joel Kotkin)
Thank you so much.
What I found after studying this issue for almost twelve years is that it's rare (almost never) that an illegal alien who kills someone didn't have prior convictions or prior charges beforehand. So not only were they in the country illegally but the opportunity to deport them was ignored.
In my son's case the killers wife was given a deportation order in 2006. She never showed up and in four years no one ever looked for her. (She was living in walking distance from an ICE office which is the same address they had for her.) Had she been deported the collision never would have happened. Even had he stayed he wouldn't have been going to parenting class when he collided with my son.
Our handling of the illegal immigration issue has been a national disgrace by Congress and every president since 1986. Trump as well. Not as bad as the rest as at least he spoke out against it. Biden's actions have been criminal and quite possibly treasonous.
Donna's Irish ancestors could have benefited from some mindset training, perhaps, and stayed where they came from? Or is that rude to ask? I also spent many years getting educated in immigration by helping asylum seekers and refugees. Their lives were just slightly more difficult than having to pick up your purse before you go potty, as touching as that is for a reason to emigrate. After being persecuted and tortured, so many of them had severe PTSD, for instance, and their coping mechanism often was to work a lot, as in shitty jobs for which they were overqualified back home. In contrast to the innumerable people who are called veterans collecting life pensions and never even saw combat and the successive generations of general welfare chiselers. Then there's the illegal Mexicans I sometimes hire, who know how to work hard with their hands, like my parents taught me, and who aren't already baked on weed when they show up in the morning like a lot of white guys in the area. So who do you think I feel more kinship for? It's funny how the poverty mentality is ingrained in so many people who were born here but everyone commenting seems to believe it came here with us more recent immigrants.
All that having been stated, reasonable restrictions on immigration are necessary but unachievable between the hard left and the hard right represented here. Hence we don't even invite the left to the discussion, but a libertarian, and then go into well rehearsed rants instead of having the slightest interest in advancing an argument for why he's wrong. In the midst of all that, Donna's the expert. Attitude is everything when you don't have a pot to piss in. Good luck and let me know how it goes with pulling the identitarian ancestry card for claiming citizenship elsewhere.
Left-libertarians and the actual "left" agree on "open borders", but their justifications and definitions are a little different.
They are both insane and irrelevant.
Most people's Irish ancestors (as other non-WASP ethnic groups) were allowed in because of the need to populate the frontier, build railroads, work in factories and mines, etc.
All that changed:
1992. Ross Perot. Giant Sucking Sound.
America, the United States, simply cannot become the receptacle for all the citizens of all the failed states in the world. They’re simply not our responsibility. U.S. immigration policies should benefit, ah, the citizens of the U.S. While on a personal level I sympathize with many of these people, the current open border will destroy our country and erase the very reasons people want to come here.
@Barriweiss, you're a genius for setting up this debate.
Thank you , Kmele Foster for an excellent forum.
Social Sec and medicare are not an entitlement.
I'm Waiting for the participants to discuss how the law abiding citizens FEEL about law breakers being mearley shuffled to the city of their choice?
Couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the arriving illegals are indentured to the cartels, can't imagine many had $5k up front.
Love it 😍 I AM a Zionist! What are you, except abusive (& repetitive?) ok this has been so much fun, but I have to get back to real life so you’re going to have spew your hatred to yourself now. Have a beautiful day 🌈
RE: VIOLENT ZIONIST PSYCHOSIS AND TERRORISM
web search: Rabbi Michael Learner death threats tikkun.org
https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/progressiverevival/2010/05/after-attack-on-rabbi-lerners.html
What "you" ARE is a psychotic tr0ll-bot.
Your psychosis and ignorance were evident early on when you made the grotesque, idiotic FLUB saying Carter was a PEANUT FARMER that knew NOTHING ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY.
You are a fake, and a bad one. Your INCOMPETENCE (even as a TROLL) is appalling.
You are a malicious sociopath, presumably hired by some vile, toxic AIPAC or other Zionist TROLL FARM.
You have ZERO CREDIBILITY and ZERO AUTHENTICITY.
Your gross hypocrisy and stupid moral posturing are nothing but classic TROLL SCRIPT RHETORIC.
-----------------
(Adapted from "Toxic Leftist Rhetorical Structure")
From another discussion:
TOXIC ULTRA ZIONIST PROPAGANDA rhetorical structure*, explained:
00000. memory holing
0000. SMUG ARROGANCE
000. use absurd SMEARS
00. project
0. gaslight
......
1. Deflect from what was actually said/done (move goal posts)
2. Distort or lie about facts and evidence (such as straw manning)
3. Cherry pick evidence to fit the victim narrative / shift goal posts
4. Engage in emotive, feel good bs (special pleading) rather than use rational, objective thought
5. Use guilt by association ("you are a K-K-K/n-a-z-i") to smear people that dare to criticize ULTRA ZIONIST ideology.
[->] Use groupthink and scapegoating to marginalize critics of ULTRA ZIONISM.
6. Demonize the personalities of opponents/critics.
7. Destroy the reputation, character and career of critics of ULTRA ZIONISM.
8. Use psychological violence, which could include doxxing, and threats of actual violence, against critics of ULTRA ZIONISM.
-----
*Note: the above can be generalized to fit any ideology.
also see:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/10/05/dhnk-o05.html
and
https://jacobin.com/2022/10/hill-rising-katie-halper-israel-palestine-fired
[web search Rabbi Michael Lerner death threats tikkun.org]
Like insane extremists on the "left", violent ULTRA ZIONIST extremists seem to have some kind of severe brain dysfunction that makes it extremely challenging to process facts and evidence from a logical, objective, rational, systematic perspective, especially when facts and evidence contradict their emotive, tribalistic, mythic narrative.